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Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2004, 01:50:14 PM »
Dave,

In my case making up strokes is getting pars. I wish it was birdies. However on the threes and fives I was able to give myself opportunities at a birdie putts.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2004, 01:50:33 PM by Bill Gayne »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2004, 03:44:08 PM »
 When the greens are not topnotch,the approaches become easier,the short game is less intimidating,and the putting is not scary. It is hard to overrate the importance when considering greatness.
AKA Mayday

Matt_Ward

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2004, 03:49:33 PM »
Hey Dave:

I'll make it real E-Z for you to catch my drift --

Bethpage Black is the more demanding tee to green course. I've played both of them and frankly if you disagree so be it.

Dave -- do yourself a favor and check out the scores from the last Opens (2002 and 1990) played at each. Tell me how many under-par rounds there were at Medinah -- oh -- I forgot you'll start whining and barking that they didn't play all the way back. Guess what Dave -- they didn't either at the Black!

Dave -- ask the folks here on GCA how high they would place Medinah among the country's best -- the sad fact is you're the lone guy preaching about it.

Now -- back to the topic at hand the Black.

One last comment to all those guys barking about the Black's lack of greens -- getting to the greens is the crux of the matter when you play the Black. Plenty of people have walked down from the par-3 14th and thought they had bypassed all the demands. THEN -- they see the dynamic par-4 15th which IMHO has one of the most demanding approaches you can find in all of golf. The slightest pull or push with the tee shot or approach and it's time for the Texas Instruments Calculator to estimate what you made on the hole. Ditto the 16th and 17th hole.

I'm not a fan of the existing 18th because there's clearly a better response in closing the round at such a superb layout.

Matt_Ward

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2004, 04:21:58 PM »
Hey Dave ...

Poor Medinah -- oh, the USGA did this and someone else did that. Blah, Blah, Blah -- you must have been great in elementary school Dave -- did you lob such hard luck stories at your teachers too! Medinah got hammered and frankly until the playoff between Donald and Irwin the course was really taken to the cleaners. You can ad-lib all the excuses you want. Geeze -- help me out didn't Mike Donald almost win the Open at Medinah. Clearly, Mike's among the pantheon of great players! The winner at the Black goes by the name of Tiger Woods at -3 for 72 holes. If memory serves I can remember all the folks here on GCA who proudly proclaimed that the Black would be toast for the professionals and that scores beyond -10 would be posted. So much for predictions.

Dave -- there are courses harder than Bethpage Black ... play The Ocean Course (Kiawah Island, SC) from the reasonable tips and it will certainly play tougher. Ditto the original Geronimo Course at Desert Mountain (Scottsdale, AZ) that Lyle Anderson butchered because a few weenie members bitched and moaned instead of taking a few more lessons. I can name others -- Whistling Straits where they played the PGA can also be included.

Dave -- take a big time chill -- I never said Medinah was a cake walk. I played Medinah twice -- that's one more time than you played the Black. I salute its demands and have seen first hand through two major events -- the '88 Sr. Open and '90 Men's Open. You need to take off the I-am-a-homer-for-Chicago-golf hat. I see the Black as being the more demanding AND more complete test of golf. If you don't then nothing I say will matter. So be it. Next subject ...

Matt_Ward

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2004, 08:07:30 PM »
Hey Dave:

I love your silly "match play" assessment. How bout we introduce some facts about that so-called "monster of the midway."

Maybe this might help jar your memory ...

Most Sub-Par rounds, U.S. Open Championship (all-time)

124 - Medinah (Ill.) C.C. (No. 3 Course), 1990
76 - Pebble Beach (Calif.) G.L., 1992
76 - Baltusrol G.C. (Lower Course), Springfield, N.J. 1993

Most Sub-Par 72-Hole Totals, Championship

28 - Medinah C.C., Medinah, Ill., 1990
11 - The Country Club, Brookline, Mass., 1988
10 - Baltusrol G.C. (Lower Course), Springfield, N.J., 1993

Geez Dave -- #3 is really a bear of a course. ;D ;D ;D

How bout a few more details rather than inane conjecture ...

Most Sub-Par Scores, First Round

39 - Medinah (Ill.) C.C., 1990
29 - Pebble Beach (Calif.) G.L., 1992
23 - Hazeltine National G.C., Chaska, Minn., 1991
Most Sub-Par Scores, Second Round

47 - Medinah (Ill.) C.C., 1990
33 - Hazeltine National G.C., Chaska, Minn. 1991
Most Sub-Par Scores, Third Round

24 - Medinah (Ill.) C.C., 1990
22 - Pebble Beach (Calif.) Golf Links, 1982

Wow -- what a "demanding course!"

Now let talk about my beloved 15th at BB. A few more facts ...

The hole stroked out at a 4.6 average for the week -- one of the alltime high's for any modern Open (post WWII) among par-4 holes. Dave -- guess what --only 28 birdies for the entire week. One other note -- the hole wasn't even played from the back tee specially created -- bleachers occupied the spot.

The fairway is so wide that only 58% of the players actually hit it during the week. Fairway width on the hole before you start to bark was no less than 35 yards across. It was so easy to hit the fairway Dave -- you're absolutely right.

Dave -- the Black kicked some serious butt of the world's best players -- Medinah gave up lower scores than any other Open venue since World War II. Like Joe Friday would say on Dragnet -- just the facts mam! Where's the monster Dave -- guess what it doesn't jive with the facts. You can concoct all the silly match play comparisons you want.

Dave -- what even more funny is that even Baltusrol Lower -- a course I personaly believe is seriously overvalued did better in scoring in 1993 than your "beloved" Medinah. I'm falling off the table in laughter with your insightful analysis on the Black. Dave -- I'll give you a mulligan -- try again OK. ;D

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2004, 09:27:26 PM »
 I did not say the greens were flat;they lacked "interest" in too many instances. Matt,you said 6 are below average. I say 6 is tooooooo many to stay with the big boys.

 I agree with Wayne that the course is more interesting than Aronimink tee to green,but Aronimink begins to catch up at the greens.

     The short game is the biggest part of the game;you can't fall short of greatness there and survive a thorough review.
       
AKA Mayday

GeoffreyC

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2004, 10:25:46 PM »
Mike

A good part of short game is bunker play.  I can think of very few venues where the bunkers on such a large scale and where you are faced with so many long bunker shots. In that sense, BB has truly world class short game interest.

How many sandies did you have?

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2004, 08:18:57 AM »
 The bunkers were impressive and indeed on a large scale. My bunker game is a basket case so I am not a good example of their difficulty.
AKA Mayday

Phil_the_Author

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2004, 10:00:10 AM »
I think everyone will agree that after having written two books about the Black course and with a thrid one about the entire Bethpage complex planned, that I might not be considered either a neutral or a casual observor to this debate.

When that is combined with having played the Black itself nearly 300 times over the years ('67-present) my knowledge of the course is surpassed by very few. For some that statement may border on arrogance and for others it will eliminate what follows as being objective statements.

So instead of my words, what did the players from the 2002 Open have to say about the course? This thread began by the observations and judgements of someone who had played it once and felt his were valid. I believe then that these "first-hand" and first-time played observations are not only valid responses, but should be listened to carefully in the overall dynamics of this conversation.

As for the greens being "flat" and therefor "easy" -

Phil Mickelson - “And it’s - the greens are so true, they're the best rolling poa annua greens that I've ever seen. You can make a lot of putts if you read them right. But you have to be careful not to give too much speed; you have to get a good feel for the touch and speed of these.”

Davis Love III - “I think somehow, somebody wrote that they were easy and they were flat, and they are not… You know, there are some greens that are flat, but they are flat on top and they might roll off, like roll off the back or roll off the side or have a false front. But the 11th green is severely tilted; 12th green is severely tilted. There's just a lot of them. One green has a false front and then it's fairly flat, but even the flat ones, are punch-bowly, where you can put the pin up towards the side of the green and you are starting to come up the side of the slope and you chip up the short-side, it's going to roll past the hole. If you put the pin in the middle of the green, there's probably four or five greens that you can call flat, but if you put them on the edges, none of them are flat. You always see a few bombs, but they are going to be so fast that -- they are Augusta speed right now, so they are tough to putt already. I mean, the 15th green is the most severe green I've ever played in the United States. It's more severe than anything at Augusta.”                                  Davis Love III

Jim Furyk - “When you have a golf course that’s 7,200 yards, and you have fast greens, you can’t have undulations in the greens, unless you want to see guys shoot 80. If the greens had undulations, it would be darn near unplayable. I think it will be an awfully good test.”

Bob Estes - “Whoever said these are flat greens is crazy. Maybe they're flat for New York, but they're sure not flat for Texas.”
     
Mark O'meara -  “The greens are flat and generous in size, but that doesn't mean it makes it any easier."

Nick Faldo - “Well, they call them flat, but I haven't had a straight putt yet. They are very slippery, and they have got such a good surface on them. Plus, we haven't been here before to read them.”

Mike you wrote on another thread that, "I was alerted to the greens at Bethpage and so was observing them intently."

I believe your view of the greens was shaped as much by what you were told as how you played. Whart makes what you were told more valid than what others were told, say someone like Tiger Woods who before he played the course  said, “… and from what I've been told, the greens are pretty severe. But I don't know what kind of pin locations they'll have.”

Actually the subtlety of the greens on the Black is to be found in their ability to be fair and frustrating at the same time. They are not dramatic, but that doesn't make them easy either. When you played, how many times did you one-putt from five feet, ten feet or more? More putts are missed on the Black's greens by less (on the edge, etc...) than any great course (IMHO). It is not the amount they are missed by that matters as much as the fact that they are missed. There are subtle facets to the greens that cause staright putts to "come off line" minutely. When you add to this that the greens can be taken to speeds that can not be surpassed anywhere (a number of them were measuring at 15+ during the Open) yet still be fair, is a tribute to their fantastic conditioning and design.

Ziggy Zyons (PGA tour caddy) - “People said the greens were flat, but they're pretty 'rolly' with a lot of undulation, they've got great texture."

Sergio Garcia - “I think these greens are probably the slopiest flat greens I’ve ever seen in my life… They were unbelievably fast, and they’re going to get even faster during the week.”

I believe that Hall Sutton summed up the greens on the Black best when he said, "There will be a lot of putts made this week - for par.”

As far as how difficult the Black is when compared to other courses, during the Open the comparisons were being made to one course, and one course alone, Carnoustie from the previous Open that had been recently held there. The consensus was a draw.

To a man, and I was in the media tents for the interviews to observe and record the answers, when asked about the difficulty, the answers were along the lines of:

Spike McRoy - “I’ve played it three times. It's the hardest golf course I’ve ever seen.”

Ryan Moore - “That is the hardest course I've ever played,”

Andy Barnes - "This is probably the biggest mental test in all of golf."

Rocco Mediate - “Whoever thought they would tear this course apart has to be nuts”

Billy Harmon - “I think it's a great course. I put it ahead of many that are accepted as Open courses.”

Phil Mickelson - “This is as hard a U.S. Open as I’ve ever played, and that’s given we played in perfect conditions.”

Tiger Woods - “Yeah, I think it’s more - it’s definitely mentally draining, because every golf shot, you’re tested. There’s not one shot you can step up and kind of relax and ho-hum it out there. You’ve got to hit a golf shot. And once you get to the greens, your work is not finished. There aren’t easy putts out there. It may be along the flat side, but the reads are so difficult, you can see a putt behind the hole, it looks right-to-left, go behind the ball and now it looks left-to-right. That’s kind of how the putts are. And you’ve got to somehow pick a line and be committed to it.”

Brad Faxon - “That was tough, it was probably as easy scoring conditions as you could have - wet, soft greens, no breeze, it was early. It was the easiest conditions, and I drove the fairway on 10, 11 and 12. And I played them in three over par.”

Steve Lowry - “I think it is very, very hard when you go out and I have one of my better rounds ever and I shoot 70. It’s a very, very difficult course."

Tiger (again) - “This golf course is more difficult than Pebble was playing. It's longer, for one. And the greens are just like Pebble; they're small, and I think these are a little more undulating, some more natural slopes in them. And it's playing so difficult out there that you hit one poor shot, and you're going to pay the price. And Pebble, the rough wasn't quite as thick. If you hit a bad tee shot in the rough, you had a good shot at getting it to the green. Here, you don't really have a good shot getting it to the green.”

Padraig Harrington - “Every shot you’re under pressure not to make a mistake on. Like 16 is a classic example. I hit a perfect drive down there, a good solid drive. I left myself 180 to the flag. It’s an elevated tee shot and a little bit of a breeze there, and you think you’ve got to get it on the fairway, but it’s only half the job done. I missed the green right. At no stage does the course let up.”

Johnny Miller - “This course is unbelievably tough!”

Bob Estes - “I’m ranked 13th or 14th best in the world, and I’m not good enough to play this course.”  

In my mind, Stewart Cink summed up the best exactly what Bethpage Black is for everyone who plays it, be they great players or poor, “It’s a hard golf course, but it’s hard for everybody.”

Mike, I believe that you need to play it several more times.


GeoffreyC

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2004, 10:21:51 AM »
Phil

Other then perhaps you and a couple of others, I am the biggest fan of BB around.

Grinding and difficulty aside - we all agree on that one- there is an aspect of fun, variety and interest and the seven greens I mentioned above do not promote short game interest, fun or variety.  Frankly, they are boring. There is a reason that crusty old Charlie MacDonald said something to the effect that the greens are the character and soul of the golf course. I've seen enough great golf courses to appreciate that statement is true.  There is much more to the game then long driving and approach shots and much of that adds to the charm, character and interest in a course.  Just one example- #2 could be one of the greatest short par 4's in golf but that pancake green is a severe letdown.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2004, 10:32:27 AM »
 Philip
    I think I may have looked at your book when we were waiting in the clubhouse.

     I am not an expert and do not hold myself out as one,but as a regular observer of golf courses I can say that many of the greens lack "interest".I never said flat.

    More later;I am going out to play a course with wonderful interest in the greens.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2004, 06:32:59 PM by Mike_Malone »
AKA Mayday

Matt_Ward

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2004, 10:51:09 AM »
Mike Malone:

If you think Bethpage Black lacks "interesting" greens then how do you reconcile the fanfare tied to Gardem City Golf Club? The greens there are also relatively flat and some could also make the claim that they lack "interest." Even those who might feel that way doesn't dampen the enthusiasm people feel about the layout there.

Let me also mention that even with the six greens at BB that are relatively dead flat and even, I might add rather uninteresting -- to wit the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th -- you still have to get to the targets in question.

I truly believe people minimize the nature of the terrain -- I know many people who are exhausted when handling the hike the course requires, the high demands on tee game ability and the location of many of the putting surfaces -- many of which are elevated. The 2nd is a good example -- it plays about 380 yards tops yet most people playing it will need two additional clubs on their approach to get to the target.

Mike -- when you mention the nature of the other courses with more "interesting" greens I have to ask how does their terrain, driving requirements and green positions compare to the Black? There is a trade-off and I believe what Geoff mentioned is also true. Long and deep bunker shots can take their toll on many people. You're only one train wreck away at the Black on quite a few number of holes.

The Black does have roughly six (6) holes that have "interesting" greens -- a word / concept that needs further definition by you.

Plenty of top tier courses have "great greens" but how do they test players from the tee shot perspective -- from the approach perspective. To give you a comparison the West at Winged Foot is not as demanding off the tee as the Black but the juxtaposition of the bunkers at greenside and the nature of the total contours on the putting surfaces is just enough to elevate the West beyond the qualities of the Black.

Mike -- I know you respect the course -- but I get this drift from others the Black is great "for a public course" mentality. It's much more than that -- inspite of the fact that the layout has 1/3 of its layout with greens that lack "interest" it still maintains a steady and unrelenting challenge.


 

Dave (forever barking about Medinah which has nothing to do with this thread!) Schmidt:

Check out the status Medinah as among all the ratings --I never said the course was easy -- don't insert words into my mouth -- I simply said the Black was more demanding from tee to green. That's my opinion. I also added other courses I believe are more demanding than the Black -- you simply avoided the answers I provided as well. Nothing like the tap dance you generally provide.

Dave -- when the bright lights of championship golf have hit Medinah what have been the results. The place has been torched -- the course yielded the most UNDER PAR. Hello -- anybody home. That's not flawed thinking Dave -- them is the facts! Talk about the second coming of the Chicago fire -- that's what's happened to Medinah. Of course -- Dave then jumps to well Medinah was a par-72 -- well Medinah had the rough cut -- well Medinah had no wind -- and blah, blah, blah.

Dave -- get over it. Medinah is like the Chicago Bears football team -- big and muscular, but lacking any real depth and character. If it wasn't in the 3rd largest city it would be simply some long course hardly any person would care about.

Dave -- fire back more bravado about your 350-yard tee shots and how the Black is some sort of chip'n putt variety layout. I need a good laugh today so please continue with the inane drivel.

P.S. The 15th at BB presents the more demanding hole. Although I give the slightest of edges to Medinah's 16th for the tee shot -- a hole many don't even hit driver on -- the second shot is demanding but I believe the one at BB is much more so. The green at BB's is more contoured and the ever present danger exists in all directions. Like I said the pros didn't even play from the tips and it still averaged out to 4.6. But, you're right -- it's chump change compared to anything at Medinah -- the king facelift course of all time. ;D

Matt_Ward

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2004, 11:41:55 AM »
Dave:

You're right you are the only person to have played

ALL THE MANY LOOKS OF MEDINAH.

Geeze Dave -- how many have there been? That's a great question for Jeopardy -- I bet the guy on the program who knows everything about everything would not even know the answer. ;D

No one else -- besides you Dave -- could know the layout because each time someone returns they play a different layout in one form or another.

Dave -- I have played Medinah #3 twice -- the last time is quite a few years ago -- around the time of the '90 Open. So -- yes, it would be fair to say that I have not seen the "new and improved" version (how many in counting?) of the course.

But let me also say your knowledge of the Black comes down to one round. I understand the course far better than you do.

Look, Tom Doak listed both courses as being among the "hardest to play" in his book. I also mentioned three other courses that are beyond the difficulty of either course.

P.S. Dave -- I hit the ball on par with the folks on the Senior Ladies Tour. I don't have all your superhuman strength -- I might have to play the senior tees this year because I'm so weak relative to you. ;D

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2004, 06:11:27 PM »
 Courses like Bethpage that have shots up to greens tend to have deep bunkering,so the bunkers at Bethpage did not seem unusual to me,maybe a little larger but not any deeper than other great courses.

     I also felt that the landing areas in most cases provided relatively flat lies. This shaves a gnat's hair off the rating as well.Most great courses I am familiar with have more demanding fairways.

      Matt,
   
   I must have missed the driving challenge;it seemed that right down the middle worked most of the time. Length is an interesting issue. If the course becomes too long for the 15 hdcp.(the average decent golfer?) than it becomes a layup game and the designed shots are lost.

      I hope you are not saying Bethpage is a great course for scratch golfers but so-so for everyone else. Would that be good design?

        I think "interesting" greens can be the thing that ties it all together.It makes those who are laying up still have to think about their short game.

       I see you guys continuing to make excuses for the lack of interest in many of the greens. It is what it is;you can't make it go away.


       Interesting greens have just enough contour or slope to handle the speed of the greens.When they go over the top it is silly; when they fall short they are not as highly regarded.

   I have not played Garden City,so I can not speak about that. But two wrongs don't make a right! Maybe that course is overrated as well.


  Matt,

  Maybe the next time I play there you should come along.

   I just keep working that "scab" about the greens and your comments are not healing it.

   
AKA Mayday

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2004, 07:03:35 PM »
Undulation is the soul of memorable architecture. Many of
BBs fairways lack this nuance.

Brookside, Boston, Philadelphia,Lawsonia,all have great shots
AND  great greens.

NCR by Wilson does also.

I guess none of these count because theyre  more than 40 minutes from Times Square ??!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2004, 07:40:21 PM »
This topic is like Marriage and Divorce.

When you're about to get married, she can do no wrong.
When you're about to get divorced, she can do nothing right.

You extract what you want to extract, you see what you want to see, good and bad, and so it is with golf courses.

The component features of a golf course can't be segregated from the rest of the architectural features and viewed in the sole context of that specific feature, isolated from its interaction with the others.

Each component feature must be viewed in the context of its relationship with all other features.

Do the sum of the component architectural features blend to comprise an excellent overall architectural presentation and test ?

Mark Chalfant,

How do the fairways at GCGC, ANGC, Seminole, Pine Tree and PV stack up in the undulation department ?

How about the lack of contour in the greens at GCGC ?

Matt_Ward

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2004, 08:22:12 PM »
Mike M:

Let me mention a few holes where proper width makes BB play even more challenging -- especially for mid-handicap types.

The 5th provides alternate routes -- you can move it left to avoid the long carry but then you face a very daunting 2nd shot.

Ditto the 4th hole -- you can way right away from the fariway bunker on the left but then the 2nd shot carry over the cross bunker becomes much longer.

Mike -- I can name plenty of examples of this type. I don't know if you noticed them when you were there, but if BB is designed to simply be a bowling alley US Open course then much of the magic is lost. That applies to a great many courses -- including this year's site Shinnecock Hills.

Let me mention that sound driving is continually thrust upon the player. You don't have a few make-up holes which I often see on any number of private clubs but are bailed out because they have green with more contour than an unmade bed. At the Black if your driving the ball poorly you will be happy as hell to get near the green and proceed from there.

Mike -- please tell me if you think Bethpage Black belongs among the top 100 courses you have played? Talk about scabs you keep scratching I hope I'm not hearing the comments from guys who have been playing way too long at private clubs and fail to see the scale, routing and elevation demands that the Black provides.

I also don't remember when you played the course and if the greens were up their potent speed.

Let me also say this -- there are guys on GCA who would rather play some "interesting" 6,300 yard layout chalk full of all the items that "preferred" architects on this site provide. There's nothing wrong with that IMHO, but the Black is vintage Tillinghast give me a man's size layout.

If you put Winged Foot's greens on the Black you'd still have guys playing out there. There is a definite balance in terms of what the course provides. Yes, it has some greens that may lack "interest", but Mike so does a number of key courses -- how bout the lack of "interest" at the world renown 16th hole at Cypress Point? I can name others from key courses where not every green is some sort of sonnet to the architect in the vein of a Mackenzie or Perry Maxwell, etc, etc.

Mike -- when you say more demanding fairways -- you must have missed a few holes on the Black -- like the 6th, 9th, 12th, even the 13th when you come near the fairway bunker deep down the left side with your second shot. Shall I mention others?

Mike -- I'd like to play the Black on your next visit. From what you're saying I'm guessing a Doak rating scale number for the course would be no more than a six? Please let me know when time permits ...

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2004, 09:07:29 PM »
 Pat  Mucci has sort of gotten to it.  It's the integrity of the course that counts;not the abstraction of each feature. But the feeling that one gets over a putt at #3 or #12 or #16 at Merion COMES BEFORE YOU HIT THE BALL!!!.It is not like Philip describes of missing it when you thought you made it; it is testing your skills at greenreading and judging how hard to hit it or aiming at some crazy angle.

 .If that FEELING is not present then the world class label falls away.Although the course is "felt" as a whole,it is the greens that provide the dominant part of that feeling.

      The realization that the greens will test you starts to affect you as you are making plans to play the course.  Thinking that you can make a difficult putt is available to a great number of golfers;thinking you can hit a straight 300 yard drive is believed by few.

As for the comments of the pros that Phil quoted,they center around the misperception that the greens were "flat".When they got there and they were in Sergio's words "slippery",they were surprised.But not one comment spoke of them as "interesting"--or like Oakland Hills .

 Matt,

 I do not maitain lists of my 100 favorite courses,but the greatest courses I have played(in my opinion) are Ballybunion,Royal County Down,Pine Valley. Near great were NGLA and Merion.

Bethpage is in that next grouping of very good.
AKA Mayday

Phil_the_Author

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2004, 08:56:17 AM »
Mike,

You wrote, "It's the integrity of the course that counts;not the abstraction of each feature. But the feeling that one gets over a putt at #3 or #12 or #16 at Merion COMES BEFORE YOU HIT THE BALL!!!.It is not like Philip describes of missing it when you thought you made it; it is testing your skills at greenreading and judging how hard to hit it or aiming at some crazy angle."

In the words of that singularly brilliant philosopher of our day, Homer Simpson (and please read this with his voice), "What the Hell are you talking about?"  ;D

Seriously, what feeling do you refer to that creates a belief of integrity? The point I was trying to make is that the greens on the Black, and again this is truly only IMHO, test your "greenreading skills and judgement of how hard to hit it." That is why so many "good putters" go around the Black and find they took 32 or 34 or evn more putts. It is the fact of missing a lot of putts that one feels SHOULD have been made that is the true arbiter of ahether one can read a green or not - not missing a two feet left because it was "mis-read." Mis-read putts do not go in. A well-read putt judges break, grain, speed and grain, taking it all into account before striking the ball. A missed putt or two is one thing, continuously two-putting for a person who will "normally" make 10-12 foot putts suggests one of two things. Either the greens are difficult to read, hence a good challenge, or he really isn't that good a putter, in which case he can not judge the subtlety of the surface he is putting on.  

Not only are the Black's greens subtle, especially the faster they get cut to, but there are even some "crazy angles" in them to be found out there.

You also wrote, "As for the comments of the pros that Phil quoted,they center around the misperception that the greens were "flat".When they got there and they were in Sergio's words "slippery",they were surprised.But not one comment spoke of them as "interesting"--or like Oakland Hills ."

Instead of letting Homer speak once again, re-read what I posted for you - I believe you missed it. Many comments in the press and among commentators before the Open were that the greens were "flat" and therefor "easy." They then went took the next step of predicting record low scores. One writer even predicted a 60 or 61 to be shot. He had the good graces and humor to admit afterward that he was incredibly off-base in his thinking.

Among the quotes you will find:

"The greens are pretty severe." Tiger Woods

"They are Augusta speed right now, so they are tough to putt already.” also, “I mean, the 15th green is the most severe green I've ever played in the United States. It's more severe than anything at Augusta.” Davis Love III

“It’s just one of those pins where… it reminds me of Augusta National..."  Billy Mayfair (talking about the 11th green)

“I don't know how it broke up the hill. I thought I was going to go a little left-right, and there's a huge slope on the left, and it went towards the slope. So it was a funny putt.”
Sergio Garcia

Although I could be wrong, I get the impression that greens and putting for you are the most memorable parts of a course and a game. You wrote, "The realization that the greens will test you starts to affect you as you are making plans to play the course.  Thinking that you can make a difficult putt is available to a great number of golfers;thinking you can hit a straight 300 yard drive is believed by few."

We all enjoy different aspects of the game and view golf courses differently as well; that is why we are on this discussion board after all. Doesn't each of us want to continuously educate the others with what WE know?  ;D

The reality though, is that great golf courses test every player continuously, regardless of what club is in his hand. The Black does this better than almost any other course. Routing, elevation changes, hazrds; the list of things to talk about can go on endlessly.

One of the great measuring sticks as to a courses greatness then comes from those who want to play it. BEFORE the Open was even being considered at Bethpage, back in 1986. I walked the Thursday round at Shinnecock in the rain and wind. In-between drops and watching shots, I found myself talking to the brother of Mark McCUmber, PGA pro & one of those who almost won that Open. He told me how they were looking forward to playing this public course they heard about in Bethpage. They heard that it had to be seen to be believed...

That is what the Black is all about. It is a magical place that gets into a person. That is why crazies like myself, Matt Ward, Geoff Childs and a host of others defend it to the death. Any course that can inspire such emotions in other wise sane(?) people deserves consideration for greatness, and more than one play before deciding it.






mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2004, 09:10:02 AM »
 Philip,
   I do not write for a living. I should have created a new paragraph there. The first sentence relates to the recommendation to see a course as a "whole". I agree with this.
      Then I wanted to state the greatness in greens for the players comes in the "feeling" they get BEFORE they hit the ball. I thought you were talking about the disappointment that comes from misreading AFTER the putt goes by the hole.

   "Severe" as used by Woods---does he mean "fast"?

     I expect to play it again,and  with the help of you guys who are passionate about it I expect to see more things the second time around.
AKA Mayday

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2004, 09:18:43 AM »


Are greens at Bethpage only "good or subtle" or whatever other word we are using when they are at incredibly fast speeds?

How fast are the greens when one shows up for a weekend six-hour ball and chain round?

wsmorrison

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2004, 09:25:25 AM »
Matt Ward sane?  There you were, Phil, giving a fine explanation and you ruin it with this premise  :)

Let us establish this.  The greenspeeds Mike played in were not indicative of the course when it is set up properly for high levels of play, and I'm not even talking US Open speeds.  The day we played, I asked one of the guys what height they were cutting the greens.  He said they were .125" since it was off season and the greens were hit pretty hard the winter before as a lot of Long Island courses were (especially NGLA).  Listen, it was mid November for chrissakes, these greens did not present the greatest challenge they can present.  

Are they relatively flat compared to many other styles of green designs?  No doubt.  

Is there variety?  Yes.  Some greens are severely sloped, others have complexities of slopes and others a bit of roll.

This leads to this very example that playing the course under one set of conditions does not necessarily indicate the overall test of golf.  Understanding this gives you a proper perspective.  

I have no doubt that Mike Malone could have putts on 18 greens under tournament conditions from no more than 20 feet on each green and I bet he'd have more than 38 putts.

Now I really don't understand Mike when he speaks of integrity of the course and abstraction of individual features, Maloneisms if you will, but given that most of Mike's play is on William Flynn greens, I would think he'd understand better than most the paradigm that Tillinghast employs at times.  Flynn's greens often have pretty steep slopes given today's green speeds.  They don't need softening because they don't have a lot of internal contouring.  There are complexities of slopes that interplay and make reading greens difficult.  And you get the same psychological effect that Phil talks about.  

You expect to make a lot of the putts, even 10-12 footers because they don't register as too difficult.  When you don't make many and you've misread breaks and speeds it starts to wear on you even if you haven't given it a lot of thought and maybe more so because the golfer doesn't intellectualize it.  

Mike, think of newcomers to RGGC and their play on the 3rd green.  How many of them, if you haven't given any clues, are totally befuddled by the green.  Flynn either designed or the green settled in a way to make the speed opposite what you think and the bunker surrounds and overall topography make you think the hole is severe back to front.  Its even hard to read all the right to left break there is on that green.  People, even top ams and pros misjudge line and speed by a fair amount on this short par 3.  A 5 on this hole really screws with your mind.

I think BB needs higher greenspeeds than you experienced to appreciate the greens.  They are far from the greatest set in the world but they are good within the overall design.  I don't consider BB one of my favorite courses let alone my favorite Tillinghast.  But it is very very good.

wsmorrison

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2004, 09:27:15 AM »
Hamilton,

Phil, Geoff, and Matt can answer you better than I.  I think the green speeds need to be over 11 for them to really shine.  Some slopes would be over the top, I'm sure they were at 13 or whatever was run at the Open.  If I had to guess the day I played with Geoff and Phil, I'd say they were around 8.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2004, 09:43:16 AM »
 Wayne,

     Do you agree with my earlier categories of --great,near great, and very good? You may have different courses but aren't there the truly top courses and then those with one or two things that downgrade the experience and then another group that gives great pleasure to play but has a persistent problem? Beyond that are the pedestrian courses and finally the dreadful.

     All I am trying to say is that the lack of interest on several of the greens dropped the course to very good for me. I was asked to give my impressions. I can only say what impressed me. I liked the course. It did not blow me away and I think it was those several greens that did it for me.
AKA Mayday

Phil_the_Author

Re:Bethpage Black-First Trip
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2004, 10:13:18 AM »
Mike,

You wrote, "All I am trying to say is that the lack of interest on several of the greens dropped the course to very good for me. I was asked to give my impressions. I can only say what impressed me. I liked the course."

Sometimes we forget, even while we say it, that we are just expressing our opinions. The love of particular golf courses causes this to come out of us, and so someone like me will passionate try to "correct flawed thinking" rather than accept the premise that the other person has an ability to make a clear and unbiased judgement.

I once compared the Black course's revitalization prior to the Open to a the day a young man sees his mother really dressed up for the first time and recognizes her not just as "Mom," but as the beautiful and vibrant woman that her husband sees.

For years the Black slaved in the kitchen making meals and doing the laundry for the family. Now she is "all dolled up" and doing cover shots for Beautiful Housewife Journal. Everyone can recognize her beauty and greatness at last.

The problem for her kids comes when they hear someone saying, "Why is she on the cover? She's no movie star!" For everyone of her children she shines, and far greater than anyone Hollywood ever produced.

A friend who is a member of Winged Foot told me that he thinks the Black is one of the five best courses in the world and should be ranked that way; that it is far superior to WF. Another friend said that he couldn't understand what all the hoopla about it is?

You know what, they are both right.

Golf courses are like women. When you find the one who is special for you, you become entranced and nothing else can take her place!

How about you & I play the Black together next year? I'd like to introduce you to a lady.