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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Totteridge
« on: November 18, 2004, 12:38:08 PM »
I am not sure about the spelling, but can anybody input on their opinions of Totteridge golf club in Pennsylvania.
I understand it is a Rees Jones design, but that is about all I know

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2004, 01:17:02 PM »
I know somebody out there has played this course..dont be shy..lets hear what you think

JohnV

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2004, 02:13:26 PM »
I was acutally out there yesterday doing a course rating and played it afterwards.  The course is quite good in most respects.  The routing goes up and down over a couple of hills.  It is walkable, but not for the faint of heart.  The basic terrain is used and not a lot of dirt was moved in the routing the holes.

It is a standard 4-10-4 par 72 layout.  There are many areas of tall fescue that put a premium on driving the ball accurately.  Once you get a ball in the fairway, the areas around the green feature more normal rough in most cases.  The greens are quite severe and some of them feature some serious slopes between tiers.  They are usually very firm and fast.  They have lots of interesting contours in them and aren't just the modern flat levels separated by slopes.  The bunkers are all quite deep.  Not Fox Chapel deep, but definitely Oakmont deep.

The par 3s are all slightly downhilll.  None of them really stands out in my mind as wonderful, but none are terrible either.  The best par 3 is probably the 14th which is a 215 yarder to a green that is well protected by a huge deep bunker to the left and a nasty little grass pot short and right.  The average player will try to stay away from the bunker and make the mistake of hitting the heavily roughed pot which is much harder to escape from.

The par 4s are an interesting mix of long and short, tough and easy and provide some interesting options.   My favorites include the 13th which is about 450 yards with a pair of bunkers that come in from the left and can be challenged by the longer hitter in order to keep the ball in the fairway which turns slightly that way.  From there the green is elevated about 10 feet and has a nice ridge coming off the slope to the left that protects the back left hole location.  Another interesting hole is the 17th.  This is a 400 yard par 4 that can be driven by the longer hitters.  The hole must drop at least 100 feet from tee to green and features a fairway that runs severely to the right when seen from the tee.  There is a creekbed that must be carried to reach the fairway and a number of bunkers that also have to be carried.  The green is well protected from the tee by a large bunker which is on the right of the green if you just hit it into the fairway.  The green itself is a kind of mini-Biarritz with a lower section in the middle.  The front section is tough to hold from the fairway unless you try to bounce the balll on through the long/wide fringe cut.

The par 5s are an interesting mix with two that go uphilll, one that is flat and one that drops at least as much as the 17th.  This downhill hole is the one that gets the most flack.  The fairway is setup as a series of flatter tiers with areas of rough in between.  Most players will end up in the first of these which is quite wide and easy to hit, but for the longer hitter who wants to risk it, the hole gets very tricky and some would say unfair.  The landing areas are blind and require either a cut or a shot over a large tree and hillside to hit.  Once you get there, you might be in a perfectly flat lie with a simple shot down to the green or a severe downhill with your ball hung in the rough.

The major complaint I would have with Totteridge is that the shaping is very typically Rees Jones.  For example, the 9th hole is a long par 4 with a hillside to the left.  The hillside has been sculpted in regular waves that come out of it and into the fairway.  Every wave is the same size and shape.  The large greenside bunker by the 18th is another example where there are a couple of capes and bays and all of them are identical.  The features are good, but way to regular to look natural.

So, all in all, I like Totteridge in terms of the challanges it presents, but I'm not thrilled with some of the details.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2004, 02:37:24 PM »
Wonderful review thanks..michael

Mike_Cirba

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2004, 03:18:44 PM »
So much for Ron Whitten's contention that Rees has broken away from his stereotypical symmetrical shaping.  Does he actually think that stuff looks good?  With the amount of classic course experience he's had, one wonders what he's looking at.    

Darn...I had such high hopes.   ::) :P :-X

Matt_Ward

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2004, 03:47:43 PM »
John VB:

I too have played Totterridge, but I have to say there were several holes of note. I really enjoyed the par-5's at the facility -- yes, I frankly admit, for the "classic" preferred player they will be deemed as being overdone by man's hand but the par-5 4th and 7th holes make you think carefully before pulling the trigger. The two on the inward nine are also quite good fun.

I do concur with your thoughts -- the amount of shaping once again is overly done and it unfortunately works against what the lay of the land calls for. The western Pennsy site could have been used in a much better way -- for those looking for a suggestion I'd much rather play over at Birdsfoot which is no more than an hour away from Totteridge.

Totteridge has its moments but they are like a movie with a great trailer but no complete film. It leave you scratching your head and wondering why more could not have been done given the nature of the site. A pity indeed.

JohnV

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2004, 08:42:17 AM »
Matt, I enjoy the par 5s at Totteridge.  15 is a very good uphill par 5.  4 is a pretty good one where you have an interesting risk/reward option on the second shot if you hit a good drive.  You will probably enjoy the extra 70 or so yards they are adding to #7.   Rocco Mediate is now involved with the course and a few new tees have been added.  Holes 4, 7, 9 and 18 all have added tees which are growing in now.

One of the things I like about Totteridge is that they didn't plant any trees out there.  The trees that are there are pretty much out of play and they didn't go and put in a bunch of little ones between the holes.

For those who have played there, when they start to build a clubhouse in a year or two, the 3rd hole will be become number 1 and 1 & 2 will be 8 and 9.

I've only played Birdsfoot once and while I liked a number of the holes, I also felt it was a bit of a tight squeeze and there are a couple of holes that didn't work for me.  Also, they might have the worst driving range in the world for a modern course.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2004, 08:54:04 AM »
I have played Totteridge only twice when I was in Pittsburgh.  I thoroughly enjoyed the course.  The holes around the clubhouse were a bit bland but the first par five on the front and the two on the back were the strenght of the course.  There are also a couple par fours that were wonderful.  I think ten and eleven were excellent example of shorthish par fours.  I also thought the club had a good mixture of guys.  The last time I was there they were going to build a practice area that looked awesome.  The membership deal is terrific for both locals and out osf towners.I felt that Rees held back on the mounding.   They are rethinking the design of the downhill par five but I don't know what they could do.  That part of the course is a little severe for golf.  I liked it and will go back.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2004, 08:58:55 AM by tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2004, 08:58:02 AM »
Matt, is Birsdfoot the Ault Clarke course?  If it is I was disappointed with the course.  I just couldn't get a flow and felt that I was on top of other players all the time.  It also had a an architectural flop for #18.  I still don't know where to hit it off the tee.
BTW I think Rees did Totteridge for 1$.  The ownere is a friend of his.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

JohnV

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2004, 10:39:48 AM »
Tommy,

Yes, Birdsfoot was done by Ault & Clarke.  18 is a real weird hole.  Perhaps on a second visit I would like it better.

Matt_Ward

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2004, 11:19:58 AM »
John VB / Tommy W:

Guys hold the phone. The 18th at Birdsfoot is remiiscent of holes you see all the time across the pond. I thought the split fairway was well done. Clearly, it can be tough to follow because the first time out you have to have someone point out your sight line. I credit the design team for having the guts to be a bit more adventurous than simply having your run-of-the-mill closer. To each his own.

I don't doubt the range at Birdsfoot is a bit "hilly." But, frankly you need to see how "hilly" the range is at Tattersall -- a Rees Jones upscale layout just outside of Phillie. You could get a severe case of whiplash at Tattersall because your neck will jump up as you hit into the massive hill there.

Birdsfoot is squeezed into some tight acreage, however, the combination of holes and routing, I believe, is a tad better than you what you find at Totteridge. You also don't have the "manufactured" look so clearly evident at the Rees Jones design layout.

The issue I have with Totteridge is that the overall "look" needs to mesh with the western Pennsy landscape. In many ways what you find at Totteridge is akin to the Gary Player design at Diamond Run and the Jack Nicklaus layout at Nevillewood.

Birdsfoot is not a superb layout but if you look at what was provided at that site and compare it to the overly shaped and overly doctored Tooteridge I think it's clear what course has the better of the two end products.


Jerry Kluger

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2004, 11:43:28 AM »
Does anyone know of any Ault & Clark courses which are really good as opposed to just average and pedestrian.  Hayfields is gaining some notiriety from the senior tour but is really not much in the way of interesting design and I just haven't seen them doing anyting of consequence.

Matt_Ward

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2004, 11:52:52 AM »
Jerry:

Birdsfoot is a worthy play -- it is not pedestrian. At the same time no one should go there expecting it to be the second coming of Oakmont, Fox Chapel or the Field Club.

Let me also mention a course designed in NJ called Heron Glen in Hunterdon County. The layout is from Dan Schlegel and is well done -- far beyond the basic "taxpayer owned muni" course. I did a rating of Jersey public courses for Jersey Golfer magazine and I believe it's one of the best dozen public courses in the state.

A few others I've played that are quite good ...

Dauphin Highlands just outside of Harrisburg, PA

Wyncote southeast of Phillie -- IMHO it's one of the best daily fee courses in the state.

On the resort side ...

Penn National (36 holes) is a worthy play -- located in Fayetteville.

Toftrres is also a worthy course in State College.

Jason Mandel

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2004, 01:16:35 PM »
Jerry,
I believe Dan Schlegel also did Ballamor near Atlantic City.  I have to think its one of Ault/Clark's better designs.  It is a really, really, strong course especially from the strategic standpoint.

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com