[mike_malone]

 I played here Sunday(after NGLA on Sat.). My bias may be the blown away feeling I had at NGLA.

      Mike Sweeney and Geoffrey Childs asked me to share my impressions.

       The most distinctive feature was the use of a big piece of land. This enabled the designer to use several high ridges for greens and tees. The up and down shots are the course's strongest points.  The placement of bunkers into ridges also added to the "look" and the strategy.

       I wonder whether the greens are up to the level of the top classic courses. I think not;just not enough interest.

      Also there are several bland holes where the land is flattish. It is tough to make these holes interesting without significant earth movement,but I can only comment on what was there and it falls short of many of the classic era courses I have played.

       So, I did register to come back to play it again.I would like to see it in warmer weather.

      How does it get rated so highly? Is it because it is in the New York area and has public access?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mayday, Mayday, Mayday,

I believe you were feeling NGLA aftershock because you missed something. IMHO it has some of the greatest shots in golf, and a few Winged Foot members would agree with me.

Okay the greens are the greens at BB. Flat or flat with subtle breaks, they certainly are not Winged Foot greens. Thus your point is well taken.

The flat holes, I would call flatter holes. I think this is part of the great appeal of BB is the variety of shots and holes. After the wild terrain on 2, 4, 5, 6, and 8, you hit 10-13. If you don't like 10 or 11 at BB, then Garden City is probably not for you. The twelve tee shot is simply an outstanding Championship tee shot. Go for it and clear the bunker below (or not) or play wide right and play a 3 shot hole.



13 is a underrated par 5, with great risk reward near the second shot landing area which is also distracts you visually with the bunker sitting 70-80 yards short.


Most of my play at BB was before the renovation, and the great shots have always been the foundation of that course.

[mike_malone]

 Mike,
    To be great or highly ranked the bar is high. The greens are a HUUUUUUUUGE( with homage to Matt Ward) factor in any analysis. When you add 3 or 4 bland holes you quickly fade into the great masses of courses.
     I did say I would go back-with that traffic that is saying something.

[mike_malone]

 Mike,
      Not all the shots one would normally attempt were possible because of the wind(unexpectedly breezy) and the cold. So,that is why I want to return.

   But, I saw enough of the greens to pronounce them below world class. This one thing is too much to overcome.

[DTaylor18]

Mayday, if Bethpage had Winged Foot greens, the course would be unplayable.

[mike_malone]

 Mike Sweeney spoke of Winged Foot. I am most familiar with Flynn greens. The ability to create interest on an elevated green is something he did quite well.
   
     I speculate that the "public" nature of the course is the reason for this decision to go easy,because the designer is capable of doing more;I have seen it at Philly Cricket(unless Wayne will say someone else did those greens).

     I just feel it knocks the course from the high levels where competition is intense.

[GeoffreyC]

Mike Mike Mike

No wonder NY State has doubled the fee for out of state players. At least you're from a blue state so you must have SOME common sense.  I'm going to write a letter that Red state residents pay a quadruple fee.  

I am the first person to criticize greens at holes 2,3,5,6,7,9 and 10 at BB.  However, tee to green it is the single best example of a Tillinghast routing.  It utilizes the property BRILLIANTLY.  Holes 10-12 are magnificent in their scale and use of angles- especially the tee shot on 11 which is offset just enough so that an inordinate # of tee shots find the rough. The second shots to each of these holes are on an equally grand scale.

I was HIGHLY disappointed in my recent round there to find the US Open fairway widths still in place with rough where there should be fairway.  The USGA has taken away many of the preferred angles of attack by putting htem in the rough.  Prime examples are a drive directly over the fairway cross bunker on 12 is in the rough 25 yards over the bunker.  That opens up the approach to the green.  Similarly, a drive down the right on 13 is in the rough yet it sets up an easier layup on th epar 5 to avoid the trouble right and fairway bunker on the left.  BAD on the Parks Department that insists that "the customers want a US Open experience".  Can you say - SLOW PLAY.  The first times I played the re-done BB I played in 4-20 and 4-30.  This time it was well over 5 hours. YUCK.

[mike_malone]

 Geoffrey,
   

     I feel like I am "on the fence" about "The Black". I agree it is a good course. I just think greens are at least 25 % of any analysis and compared to NGLA,Merion,Huntingdon Valley,Lehigh, other assorted Flynns they do not measure up. All of you guys find yourself making excuses for too many of them.

      Isn't being one of the best public courses in the country high enough praise?

[mike_malone]

 I think the size of the property is also one of its limiting features. They certainly used the ridges well,but they needed to use a lot of bland ground in between. I can understand the financial limits a public course in the 30's faced. But the end result is what I judge.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Thanks for the interesting debate.  Where do you guys put BB in relation to other Tillinghast works?  WFE,WFW,SFGC,Balusrols,Fenway,QR?

Maybe some insight into this will help us better understand your feelings on the Black.  I have not played the course in twenty years, the routing is world class, but is there a three put (at normal greenspeeds) anywhere on any green?

[mark chalfant]

Sweeney, Sweeney,Sweeney,
Maydays observations are brave and accurate. There are numerous back nines all over the USA with better architecture that BBs #10 -18.

Camargo
Brookside
Newport
Golden Valley(AWT)

NCR by Wilson
Harrison Hills
White Bear Yacht near St. Paul
Boston GC

These places have great holes AND great greens. But none of them are
within 30 miles of the  Statue of Liberty.

[mike_malone]

 Philly Cricket is only other Tilly I have played. I like that course very much. The overall comparison of the two  would be about equal in my mind.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mark,

Stop trying to get me to NCR !

[Matt_Ward]

Mike M:

Enjoyed your comments, but frankly I have to say you need to see the course again for a better appreciation of what is there.

Bethpage Black has inferior greens for no less than a third of the course. The other third are average or slightly above and the remaining six are certainly first rate. The key to remember -- which I have to say you ignored -- is the other strenghts of the course.

What you failed to point out is the demanding no-nonsense driving aspect of the course. You MUST hit the driver to score at Bethpage Black -- this is not the quaint chip'n putt variety course where you can scrape it around still come withn 3-4 shots of your handicap. I've played my share of these quaint cutesy type courses throughout the I-95 corridor stretching from your home base of Phillie through Jersey and into Westchester and the Island. Plenty of them may have unique greens but they are far from a man's size layouts that you find with the Black.

Mike -- I value the nature of greens as much as anyone but there are people here on GCA -- possibly you -- who simply overdose on the nature of the greens. I've played Bethpage Black nearly 200 times and there's enough quality found on a number of the greens to keep things interesting -- certainly when the speed is nearing the 12 and 13 stimp speeds.

Let me remind you that as I said at the outset there are significant contours on roughly six of the holes but you need to see the demands placed on the tee and approach shots throughout the round.

You did touch upon the size of the property and clearly one of the unique aspects of the Black is its massive scale. The walk from one end of the property takes you into two counties as the course straddles the line between Nassau and Suffolk counties.

One of the things people have to understand about the Black is that you need to score very early if you're going to catch the course with its pants down. The first three holes allow you to build momentum because when you encounter the superb chain reaction 4th hole with its devilish bunkers you are then entering the core of what makes the Black so unique.

Mike -- let me point out that I have, along with other longer hitters, attemped to reach the 4th green in two blows and unless the shot drops from the sky like a wounded pigeon the likelihood is your ball will careen into some interesting and wild terrain to the side or rear of the target.

The 5th and 6th are two standout par-4's. You have to decide strategically what to do at the tee. The 7th has the elasticity to play as a par-4 (as it did for the '02 Open) or a solid three shot par-5 save for the longest of hitters. The downhill par-3 8th is reminiscent of PV's 14th hole and to be quite honest I believe it's a far better hole than the one you find at the Jersey gem.

The 9th is also a demanding driving hole with the cut-off between the top and botton tiers.

Frankly, the entire back nine is simply one superb hole after the next with the lone exception being the mild par-3 14th (although the green there is quite good!). I have stated my thoughts on the 18th numerous times and I believe it needs a serious makeover to really close the deal when playing the Black.

The Black is more than just a "public course" and sometimes that tag is hung around its neck in order to bring the Black down to a lower level of importance. Frankly, I see only courses such as Winged Foot / West being more intense than the Black and clearly Tillie's effort in Mamaroneck has the better putting surfaces. Give the Black the kind of greens you see at WF and the status of the Black would easily be among the top 4-5 courses in the USA. Dan Taylor is quite right on his thoughts if the two courses were somehow merged.

Hamilton H:

Go to the following greens and if you should have a touch of Robert Duran-itis (aka hands of stone!) and you will quickly three-putt in a blink of an eye ...

4th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 16th, and throw in the 17th for good measure.

Just remember -- the trick at the Black is GETTING TO THE GREEN. Everyone says the greens are pushover type stuff -- gentlemen be eternally grateful IF AND WHEN you get to the greens because Tillie makes you think long and hard on how to get from the tee to the green.

To answer you question on top Tillie layouts I would have Winged Foot / West at the top of my pecking order. When prepared correctly the layout is the most intense and demandign second shot course you can play. The pressure is always on the minute you arrive at the 1st tee. Plenty of people avoid Winged Foot for one simple reason -- they know they will get their proverbial ass kicked if they happen to play even the slightest below their potential.

Below WF / West I would have the Black and then likely SFGC or even Fenway. Clearly, Quaker Ridge would be in the mix. I also believe Baltusrol Upper gets little attention as does the work being carried out at Ridgewood CC in Jersey through the involvement of Gil Hanse. Frankly, I'm not a fan of Baltusrol Lower because of what it has been morphed into being. You also can't forget such unique courses as Somerset Hills and Baltimore's Five Farms.

Geoff C:

Amen regarding your thoughts on how BB is prepared now. There is no need for the width of the course (a key strength) to be constricted in the manner it is now. All that does is slow play to a crawl. The area over the 12th bunker should be cut to fairway height -- if someone should be fortunate to carry the tight target line they should receive some roll -- having rough there is only a penal addition that belies what was originally intended IMHO.

[wsmorrison]

I too played Bethpage Black this year for the first time.  My impression going in was that there were a number of other courses at this public facility but the Black was meant to be what it is marketed as, a golf course that is not for everybody based upon its difficulty.

Mike Malone did not play the course under tournament conditions.  The greens are being mowed at .125" and all the nuances and comlpexities are not evident at these green speeds.  So he should take into account that the course is being set up for off-season play and that it is a different test with green heights around .1" and less; around 12-13 on the stimp.  He also played the course at its US Open narrowness and that to me is a shame.  Yeah, people want the open experience, but the course suffers for us mortals with these widths.  Yet, with greater fairway width should be more interesting green sites to initiate strategy off the tee shot.  I think this is one area that the course falls a bit short.  With classic course width, the greens are not that demanding and the greenside bunkers are pretty removed from the green margins.

No doubt about it, the greens are not the course's strongpoint.  They are rather flat in general and some are downright boring.  Tee to green, this is an excellent golf course.  It is long and hard, much more interesting in my mind than Aronimink even though Aronimink has far more complex greens.  I think that, given the other courses in the complex, that the Black could have more interesting green complexes.  Granted, Winged Foot West complexes on this course would make it one of the most difficult, if not the most difficult, courses in the world.  Still, the greens could've been further along the interest scale than currently found there.  Fenway like greens would've worked very well in my opinion.

The routing is quite good and indeed expansive.  I think the collection of par 3s are very good, particularly 17.  It is such a good front 9 tee to green (especially 4-9) but the greens on some of the best hole designs are some of the weakest.  I concur with Geoff that these include 3,5,6,7,9.  I also think that 7 should be a par 4 with the back tee from the Open tee (maybe because I reached the green in 2 from there!) and the course would thus play as par 70.

As for the back 9, it doesn't suit my eye so well.  The long stretches of bunkering on both sides of the fairway on 10, 11, and 18 is too much.  The shapes are a bit overdone as are the number of bunkers.  This is my personal feeling, I freely admit others are justified in liking the look.  It is a big world.  I also felt that 18 was a rather mundane finish after 15, 16, and 17 although I played from the 380 tee.  The back tee would be admittedly more interesting.

Bethpage Black, to me, is far superior to Philadelphia Cricket Club.  I liked Fenway better than the Black--it had interesting ground and superior greens.  As for Winged Foot West, I thought the green sites are as good as it gets.  The fairways are a bit tame--flat for the most part.  I like uneven stances and natural rolls in fairways.  However, I clearly liked WFW better than Bethpage Black....maybe I give a lot of weight to green sites.  I also play hilly courses quite a bit so the elevated approaches at Bethpage weren't unnerving.  My game was off but not because of the elevation changes.

[Matt_Ward]

Wayne, et al:

There is one very clear reason why Bethpage Black and Winged Foot / West don't earn the affection of many
people -- you know why?

People understand that anything less than superior play from tee to green will mean a serious buttwhupping. People clearly enjoy Fenway because it falls within their means to be challenged at THEIR level. Ditto the feelings for Quaker Ridge, Somerset Hills and Baltusrol Upper, to name just three others.

The issue with the Black is that its routing, scale and demands off the tee are world class from the many layouts I have played. I concur 100% that course width should be the feature for daily play because having the layout become too narrow makes the playing of the course too draconian and robs the Black of the unique playing angles encountered. Bowling alley golf fails completely to tell the story of BB.

Putting greens are clearly a feature but I will hasten to add that nearby to the Black you have Garden City Golf Club and the surfaces there are also quite flat in many places but still interesting when played at the appropriate speed. The same holds true for the Black although I do admit that a few tweaks -- particuarly the lackluster 18th -- are certainly in order.

People should play the Black when it is in mid-season form. Then -- and only then -- will you fully sense the aura the Black has provided to countless golfers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday, et. al.,

How would you compare the putting surfaces at BPB to those at GCGC ?

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

To paraphrase Reagan -- "there you go again."

I guess you figure if you keep on mentioning Medinah in the context of a discussion of a great courses like Bethpage Black and Winged Foot / West eventually people will "see the light" and include that Chicago area layout. That's a novel strategy.

Dave -- the level of details -- that I have already outined about the Black goes beyond Medinah -- let's not also forget the serious lumber issues you encounter at Medinah. Plus let me add the repetition of par-3's over Lake Kadijah. I also think the starting and closing holes at the course are pedestrian design stuff 101.  

But, let's consider what THIS thread is about.

The Black is a very fair but exacting test of golf -- it is quite challenging and frankly more people who complain about the course venture to the wrong tee and then piss and moan in the clubhouse about how unfair the layout is.

The sheer scale, routing and variety of holes is truly a work of art. There is one thing I do agree upon 110% with you Dave --put greens from Fenway or WF / West on the Black and it would simply be among the 4-5 best courses in the nation and even the world.

[SPDB]

Seeeney, Sweeney,Sweeney,
Maydays observations are brave and accurate. There are numerous back nines all over the USA with better architecture that BBs #10 -18.

Camargo
Brookside
Newport
Golden Valley(AWT)

NCR by Wilson
Harrison Hills
White Bear Yacht near St. Paul

Mark - Do you really believe that Camargo's back nine is better than BPB, or even better than its front nine? I believe it is one of the glaring weaknesses of the course, resulting in part from 1) Raynor's death mid-construction, 2) Von Hagge's unmistakeable imprint.

[Brad Swanson]

I recently playted Bethpage Black for the first time (the day after playing Maidstone and Shinnecock).  Unfortunately it had just been aerated a few days prior and was in pretty rough shape.  I would concur that the greens are pretty flat and boring, and I also though to myself after playing that if it had greens similar to other great Tillinghast courses, it might be the toughest tests of tournament golf anywhere.

I do not like the tree on 8.  After hitting what I thought was a perfect shot to a back right pin, I clipped the tree and ricoched up the hill on the right (tap in par from jail though ).

I agree that the grass beyond the fairway bunker at 12 should be mown as fairway, although I personally had no trouble reaching the fairway over the bunker from the 500yd tee.

2 of the 4 par 3s are pretty weak (3 and 14).

4 and 5 are right up there as best back to back holes anywhere.

I agree with Mayday about 10-12 being a bit on the bland side.  

The collection of par 4s tee to green are great.

I personally can't wait to get back to play again (although I'm not sure about the quadruple rate for red state players Geoffrey )

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[GeoffreyC]

Brad

I will absolutely lobby for the quadruple rate for red state residents to be waived for academic scientists.  

[Lou_Duran]

BradS,

For a guy who doesn't have time to play the best true collegiate course in the planet right in his backyard, you sure get around.  I knew I should have studied harder when I went through the Chemistry 101-103 series at OSU.  To date, all that hard field work on Scarlet has not paid off.

Be it golf or politics, it remains somewhat amusing to me how very intelligent people can look at the same things and come up with such varied conclusions.  I simply loved Cog Hill #4 when I played it this past October.   shivas has opined that the Black is a far superior course.  Yet, Messrs. Malone
and Swanson do not appeared overwhelmed by it.

Likewise, based on comments by Matt Ward and others, I went out to Medinah #3 expecting a restricted backswing on the tee due to a gross overgrowth of vertical hazards.  Instead, I found a course that has plenty of room for the most part to accomodate my many foul balls, both left and right.   And despite all the trees, balls are easily found and recovery shots are at times possible.

The Black seems to get hacked a bit for so-called flat greens.  As it is, it is a very difficult course.  Imagine how much more so it would be with heavily contoured green complexes.

Cuscowilla is one of the few courses that I've played that can be very demanding on every shot, and particularly on the greens.  It is well under 7,000 yards and it can take 5 hours to play.  The Black at over 7200 yards with its difficult bunkers and newly contoured greens would make an already long day there even more so.

Balance, perhaps should be given a higher priority.  I still like the notion that short holes should have difficult green complexes, and long, tight holes are better with more receptive surfaces.  I guess that this is too formulaic for some, but I ain't that good to hit a long-iron or fairway metal to a fall-away green.

   

[GeoffreyC]

Lou

First- My public congratulations on your winning our bet. Many many drinks will be on me next time we meet.  I can't say which was worse on November 2nd, my colonoscopy in the morning or watching the results in the evening   . I am glad to say that the results in the morning were excellent.

We played Cog Hill together and it vastly exceeded my expectations.  Its one hell of a great course and removing a few thousand trees would bring it up way high.  It is still no Bethpage Black. Think of a scale like SFGC and up it an order of magnitude. The bunkers at BB could swallow the white house. Please come out for a visit and we will bring your son and then get drunk  

[Brad Swanson]

Lou,
   My short comments may have misrepresented my overall opinion for Bethpage Black.  I was overwhelmed, and I loved every minute of being beaten to death.  Playing from the tips, I don't every recall hitting so many 3-4 irons into par 4s post-puberty.  Bethpage Black may very well be the "biggest" course I have ever played .  The scale of the place is overwhelming.  I can't wait to get a chance at seeing the course in its best shape (the same goes for The Scarlet Course ).

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Bill Gayne]

I also had my first visit to Bethpage in September. I concur with the comments posted regarding the epic scale of the course, test of driving, and bunkering. As I've posted on the site before, the only negative comments would be agreement about some of the greens, the tree on 8 needs to go, and I thought the tree line on the left side of the fifth hole could be trimmed back to give a little more access to the green.

I've had two really good driving tests in the last two years at Bethpage and Portrush and I would call it a draw. (I don't agree with the idea that the reason that Portrush is difficult is because of narrowing of the fairways. I think it's more reflective of the roll of the land and the angling of the tee boxes. You have very few straight drives at Portrush.) At Bethpage you really need to look at what you want your second shot to be and the angle you're going to be left with. In addition to being accurate you need to be long.

The par fours were grinding holes for me and I don't think I had any real chances for birdies. Most of the time I was hoping to get through with bogey at worse and to often it would be a double. The threes and fives were the opportunities to make up the strokes.

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