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Andy Hughes

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Re:Most Original or Radical GCA Idea of All Time?
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2004, 02:29:12 PM »
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I think it extremely unlikely that The Redan just happened. Someone back in the dim mists of time knew exactly what they were doing.
Bob
That's interesting, as I had always thought that, like the Old Course, much of the features/greens/routing on the older links in Scotland where not actually created by man and that N Berwick was one of those.  Are you surmising or do you actually know this?
Also, and I can't imagine there is any way to know, it would be interesting to know if the hole was designed by someone who put things in specific places for specific reasons, or if it was much more random and only much later people looked and said "hey, cool, look how well this works and for these reasons".
Andy
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Most Original or Radical GCA Idea of All Time?
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2004, 03:53:12 PM »
For its time, what was most Original or Radical GCA Idea of All Time?  


brother Jeff_Brauer

it seems to me the "firsts" (ie  installation of an irrigation system, golf under lights to play at night, the GOLF CART (ugh), building residential homes purposely on the course, the first PUBLIC course design, the modern lawn mower, etc) would qualify as either radical or original architecturally influenced ideas

Frank,

Good points all.  In the irrigation point, though, George Bahto's book describes how an irrigation salesman came out to NLGA quickly after construction started.  Thus, golf irrigation may have evolved from other irrigation.  Thus, it may not be radical as much as evolution.

How radical is the idea of bombarding the genetic chromosones of turf to create drought resistant, disease resistant turf?)

Andy,

Since no one alive now was there, we don't know.  But, I suspect that about 2 days after the first golf hole was in play, golfers started discussing how to rebuild it to be "fairer" (read, "Make it fit my game better) and most holes we know now are the result of constant revision.  Over 500 years of Scottish Golf, you have to figure there were numerous changes, if, at least, you believe human nature to be a constant.

I thought this was a fairly decent topic, and its good to see it finally get to 2 pages!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

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Re:Most Original or Radical GCA Idea of All Time?
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2004, 05:49:22 PM »
Andy -

All golf courses are man-made. It's just that some look more like it than others.

Bob

ian

Re:Most Original or Radical GCA Idea of All Time?
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2004, 08:39:37 PM »
Coming off the ice and onto grass

TEPaul

Re:Most Original or Radical GCA Idea of All Time?
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2004, 08:40:04 AM »
"Frank,
Good points all.  In the irrigation point, though, George Bahto's book describes how an irrigation salesman came out to NLGA quickly after construction started.  Thus, golf irrigation may have evolved from other irrigation.  Thus, it may not be radical as much as evolution."

JeffB:

Although NGLA may've had some sophisticated irrigation for its time are you aware of the extent of agronomic problems that course had in its first few years?

It wasn't a matter of lack of irrigation at all that produced the massive agronomic failures there---it was the totally inexact science of seed at that time (seed merchants put every kind of seed imaginable together in what they sold Macdonald on the theory that something was bound to grow!  :) ) and the fact that Macdonald apparently did not understand well enough that you can't grow grass on basically straight sand. Actually, as NGLA and then PVGC found out a few years later you can grow grass on straight sand but you can't grow it very long!

Those early guys did not understand very well that the second necessary part to irrigation in growing (and sustaining) grass was you had to have a growing medium for both nutrients and water retention. Macdonald got a few catches of grass at NGLA in the beginning but it didn't take long for that grass to just burn right up as the irrigation drained straight down to China probably by the end of the day  ;)

That's when Macdonald got in touch with Piper and Oakley of the US Dept. of Agriculture. They were basically forage experts and botanists and they sure did know how to make things grow although they'd never thought about golf agronomy before.

At that point NGLA dumped thousands of tons of manure all over the golf course as did PVGC and everything sure did grow---all kind of things including weeds and worms and everything else imaginable making both courses a bloody mess early on.

At that point they all got into real experimentation with grass strains and exactly how to apply the proper growing and water retention medium during construction, bents were perfected and within ten or so years they all started the USGA green section with what they'd learned together. As far as an acceptable putting surface was concerned a truly interesting jack-of-all-trades by the name of Frederic Winslow Taylor of Philadelphia managed to make a real breakthrough with a green construction method that was basically the precusor (in the teens) to the present USGA spec green construction method!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2004, 08:45:48 AM by TEPaul »

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Original or Radical GCA Idea of All Time?
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2004, 12:51:50 PM »
Quote
Since no one alive now was there, we don't know.  But, I suspect that about 2 days after the first golf hole was in play, golfers started discussing how to rebuild it to be "fairer" (read, "Make it fit my game better) and most holes we know now are the result of constant revision.  Over 500 years of Scottish Golf, you have to figure there were numerous changes, if, at least, you believe human nature to be a constant.
Quote
All golf courses are man-made. It's just that some look more like it than others.
Jeff, what the heck does human nature have to do with golf? :)
I do wonder, though, how right you and Bob are re the hand of man and some of the older Scottish courses.  For example, take the Road Hole; did someone at some point see the hole and say, 'ya know, this hole would be more strategic if there was a deep, gathering bunker eating into the very vitals of the green'?  Or at some point, did someone make the conscious decision to orient the green just so, so that the bunker, the road and the approach shots all played out as they do now?  Or did it just kinda play out that way, and then the finishing polish was just applied the last 100 years?
Or #16, did someone look at that as a mundane hole and have a flash of brilliance and decide to dig out the Principal's Nose, and put it just so in relation to the wall on the right and the green further on?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007