How much of C&C is the look and how much the play?

[George Pazin]

On the Bandon Trails thread, redanman made a pretty interesting observation:

The "look" is not enough.  I am so tired about hearing how everything new from C & C will blow ___________ out of the water, etc. etc. etc..

I haven't had a chance to sample any C&C courses yet, but I'd be curious to know, from those who have, whether they'd agree with the above statement, which seems to imply that C&C's courses are more about the look than the play.

Comments/observations?

[Dale_McCallon]

Only able to reply regarding Cuscowilla, but I don't think it is only the look at that course.  Maybe I've not played enough quality courses in my life, but this course had so much more going for it than most I've ever played.  Well contoured greens, great areas around greens to make you think about your shots, and some deep bunkering.

But maybe this "look" they are so good at delivering is part of their success.  For ex., tourist goes to Lake Oconee and plays Cuscowilla, Harbor Club, and Reynolds Plantation (take your pick).  Probably has a good time at all, but which is most memorable?  It is hard to forget those amoeba looking red clay based bunkers.

[john_stiles]

Having played three C&Cs a number of times,  it is much more about the play than the looks for myself.

I am used to the looks at Cuscowilla & Chechessee, but the play never gets routine.  Not sure there is much to the 'look' at either because I do not notice the 'looks' much anymore. The green complexes are just that ....'complex'..... and interesting and challenging.  You often have difficult putts and recoveries.

However, it will probably take several more plays to get over the beauty of  Sand Hills.  I must admit that.

[THuckaby2]

Hmmm... I've played three C&C courses, all of which look completely different from each other.  What's this look we're talking about?

I will say this - they were each beautiful, each in gorgeous settings, each laying quite nicely on the land in such settings.

But they each were pretty damn fun to play also.

Cuscowilla, Sand Hills, Kapalua Plantation.

TH

ps to John Stiles - why would you ever WANT to get over the look of Sand Hills?  Man the day that happens to me is the day I hang up the clubs... or go become a hermit...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

C & C are simply the BEST, if not GREATEST designers of golf courses working in the business today.

There are others, many others that are equally as talented, and are also proving it each and every year. I can only hope for a Brave New World in Golf Architecture because of these people who build golf courses inspried both by Nature and Classical ideals. Those who follow those guidelines will be looked upon in the future as those who got it. Those who differ, well they'll be looked on in the same way we look upon Robert Trent Jones Sr. A nice man with an ego the size of New Jersey who did a masteful job of selling snake oil to those who wanted to buy it.

And lets get one thing straight--you will never see Bill Coore selling anything store bought, packaged, freezed dried, or even canned. He's like In-N-Out Burger. He's fresh with all  quality natural ingredients that produce the same Freeking Fantastic burger each and everytime. He dictates where he wants his burger stands built and exactly who he is building his burgers for.

Those who have been to In-N-Out will know exactly what I'm talking about.

Go Bill Coore!

You can all dispute that with your claims that its a narrow-minded comment, and that its just me being me. Go right ahead. They aren't perfect, nor ever claim to be. They certainly have the least selfish attitude in the business of designing golf courses.

They are the Masters of Their Domain!  

Since I'm in recovery from fast food addiction, here are my Architects and Fast Food chain comparisons.

1. Coore & Crenshaw / In-N-Out ("That's What a Hambruger is all about," is the company slogan--the same goes for C & C and golf courses)

2. Rees Jones / Taco Bell (Really isn't Mexican food, and they really aren't golf courses.)

3. Tom Fazio /Carl's Jr./Hardee's (Food that really looks good in the advertisements, but its as expensive as Hell and really is just sort of so-so as an edible food product. Fancy package with just so-so food.)

4. Jack Nicklaus/Jack in the Box (The King of Fast Food--so he thinks, that is until you realize you just ate an Ecoli-infected product. Highly creative advertising. Realized they needed to do something different so they came out with the Pannido, a pretty good sandwich on a fresh bagget, but its REALLY expensive.)

5. Robert Trent Jones Jr./Pizza Hut (Come on you New Yorkers. Is this really pizza?!?!?! My suspicions are that the cheese is really a synthetic)

6. Jeff Brauer/Wienershnitzel (The closest you'll ever get to German food in the fast food market-Some like it, some hate it, Jeff loves it! ) (10 point credit to Jeff for being a good sport about it)

7. McDonald's/Hurdzan & Fry (When McDonald's first started in "San Berdo" so many years ago, people said that the McDonald's Brothers really cared about the quality of food they put out. Lets face it. Today we go there for the Fry's/fries! The problem for years with the burgers was that Dr. Mike spent coutless hours trying to find the perfect chemicals for those burgers to make them taste better. In the end, he is finding out that he doesn't need to add all of that crap to make it taste good. Good Health means GREAT Golf. So do the old style California Greens!)

8. Kyle Phillips/Wendy's (Thinks he's a designer of true links courses like Wendy's thinks they are the procurer of real hamburgers. Tell me where the idea for a square patty came from? Does that sound like a real hamburger to you? Would I really want to go to Wendy's if there is an In-N-Out right down the street?)

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tommy,

The square burger idea came from Krystals and White Castle.....

The Seinfeld fans among us must be wondering exactly what you are trying to say about the good messr. Coore and Crenshaw

And, its easy to be a good sport in this case, cause I don't quite understand what it is you're saying here, (there are smarter guys than me!) so I'll just smile, nod, and agree.....

[john_stiles]

TH,

I agree that being tired of the SH beauty will possibly never happen.  It will always take several more plays at SH to get over the beauty.  Just a few more times....... oh, about a few more.....yes, I would like to play a few more.

Anyway,  for the C&Cs that I have seen,  it is about the play into and around the greens.

JS

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think its very possible that we are ALL more affected by the looks of the course than some would let on.

I love C and C architecture I have played, and they do create some great play options.  

In this specific question, since so many opinions here are rendered upon photos, etc. don't you think most people are endorsing the less refined bunker look they are using?  If we were discussing play value, then we might be talking about bunker depth, placement (granted, the center bunkering they occaisionally use does get discussed) etc.

[GeoffreyC]

I've played several C & C courses. Never seen one that I didn't like as far as playability.

Sand Hills- simply the greatest modern course there is. In fact, in many regards it has no equal anywhere.  Totally unique.

Friars Head- I like it better each time I play there. It combines the best of Cypress Point, NGLA and Pine Valley into one course.  Best set of putting greens built since Prairie Dunes.

Talking Stick North and South-  Absolutely the finest example of how to take a totally featureless pancke flat piece of desert and create something special, afordable and with interest for return visits.  The South is WAY WAY under rated. Its greensites are a meld of MacKenzie bunkering with Tillinghast push up greens.  I hope the trees they planted die.

Hidden Creek - This was a tough one for me as my first visit left me with the impression that it was a teriffic course but below the "Great" scale for which others compared it in scale with Friars Head.  That's unfair and my subsequent visit with golfs most beloved figure and other greats of the game, Mucci, Paul, Morrison and Turner set me straight.  Hidden Creek is onew of the best modern courses around and certainly on par with the beloved Rustic Canyon.

So there you have my take on the C & C courses I have personally visited and played. Great look- Great play!