Queenwood

[Philip Gawith]

i had the pleasure of a round this past saturday on a glorious autumn day at this magnificent new(ish) course. (Queenwood is the course David Mclay Kidd built post Bandon Dunes). The course was pretty good out of the box - three years ago -  but has improved markedly since then.

 A lot of new bunkers have been introduced which not only increase the challenge but also improve the aesthetics. arguably the outstanding feature of the course is the green complexes - they have a lot more slope, and a lot more speed, than the greens of most heathland courses. it has a slightly unusual lay-out, including five par fives and five par threes.

in my own view the par threes are perhaps a better feature than the par fives encompassing, as they do, a great mix of length, elevation change, direction change and just all round good to look at. i think my favourite hole on the course would be the short par four 16th, which requires a short approach over water to an amphitheatre green.

all the bunkers have had gorse planted around them which gives them exceptional definition. the course is not yet in the rankings but i would think it is headed into the top twenty before too long. there can be few, if any, inland courses built in the UK in the last 10 years which can compare with it.

unfortunately, the course is private and hence not easy to play. i am only sorry i did not have my camera to hand - next time!

[Marc Haring]

Phillip, you are one of the chosen few, it is very exclusive in the literal sense of the word.

I’ve hopped over the fence to have a quick look and was impressed with the greens that were A4 bent and cut at about 1/10th inch. Do that on your typical heathland course and there wouldn’t be much left at the end of the season. It is though not a true heathland course as all the heather and gorse has been planted.

I think the entrance fee is in the 6 figure bracket (GBP’s) and they even chucked Hugh Grant off the range as the member whose guest he was, hadn’t yet arrived (so the story goes).

You’re right, next time take your camera but I’m not sure they would welcome any unmonitored exposure.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I think the entrance fee is in the 6 figure bracket (GBP’s) and they even chucked Hugh Grant off the range as the member whose guest he was, hadn’t yet arrived (so the story goes).

Here is one American who hopes our friends in the UK do not start to follow American traditions !

[Marc Haring]

Mike, Queenwood is a one off. Most of us Brits are way too frugal to want that sort of facility.

[Philip Gawith]

marc is right on both counts mike. it is very expensive, considerably more than any other UK club i know of, considerably less than the top US clubs. he is also right that the market for this sort of development in the UK is quite limited - i just don't think there are that many people with a lot of money who are looking to join a new club.

[David_Tepper]

philip & Marc-

I would not bet against seeing more "ultra-premium" golf clubs being developed in GB&I. We have reached the stage in Western society where some things are easier to sell if you charge more rather than less. The pool of potential buyers is far deeper and wealthier than you might think. Look at Doonbeg and the fairway condos there that are going for well over 500,000 Euros.

A sad commentary, I know.

DT

[Philip Gawith]

for what its worth, i think queenwood is a better course than doonbeg, although i accept it is a case of apples and oranges. the comparison is vaguely relevant since the two courses are possibly the most exceptional - in the broadest sense of the word - that have opened in the past three years in the UK and Ireland.

[David_Tepper]

philip-

You could probably add Skibo/Carnegie Club to the list as well, don't you think?

DT

[Philip Gawith]

i am not sure. doonbeg much discussed because of norman and heavily marketed; queenwood interesting because the next step post bandon for kidd, and also because it it so elitist (it is not widely known, but if you know anybody in london who is rich and keen on golf then it is certainly well known!). you don't hear skibo talked about much. all that i have heard is eye-popping rates to stay there. i am not even sure whether you have to stay to play. put it this way - in all my visits to dornoch, i have never been tempted to go over to skibo. so at the very least they have done a poor marketing job!

[David_Tepper]

philip-

I was not attempting to address the actual merits of the 3 golf courses (Doonbeg, Queenwood & Skibo). I was thinking more in terms of the expense, exclusivity, status, etc. of the 3 clubs and the appetite for such in GB&I.  

My understanding is that the members at Skibo bought out De Savary (the developer) about a year or so ago.  Clearly there are a number of people who are happy with the situation at Skibo and are willing to underwrite the expense of operating the enterprise. I believe  visitors can stay there (at considerable expense) on a one time only basis, but the course itself is now no longer available for daily fee play . It would appear there are some people who prefer playing at Skibo rather than rubbing elbows with the likes of me and you at Royal Dornoch!

DT  

[Philip Gawith]

who could these people be?! have you played there david?! i know of no-one who is a member at skibo, but i know a few people who are members at loch lomond which, as you know, is the other luxury offering in scotland. they recently rejigged the membership. it seems to be on something of a roll with a second links course now open to members - 15 minutes by helicopter! - and another course being built on the site. and the accommodation is also being upgraded, including building a spa i think.

[David_Tepper]

philip-

I do not know any members at Skibo either, but, as F. Scott Fitzgerald (I think) said, "the rich are different from you and me" and my guess is the super-rich are even more different. I very, very rarely seem to rub elbows with either.

Enough 21st century robber-barrons are members at Skibo to buy the place for themselves and there are enough left over to buy those 750,000 Euro condos at Doonbeg as well. To quote Warren Buffet, "there may or may not be class warfare, but there is little doubt who is winning."

Having introduced golf carts ("buggies") and fairway condo timeshares (at Gleneagles and Turnberry), it appears the next contribution of the US to golf in GB&I is going to be the 100,000+ pound sterling golf club initiation fee. Is this a great country or what!

DT      

[Marc Haring]

Forgive me if I am wrong but I do think that most of the clientele of Queenwood are indeed American. I believe the idea was to build an extravagant, so called traditional heathland golf club, (if that’s not a contradiction in terms) specifically for the American market. That is why it had to be built close to Heathrow. Of course I have no idea of the true make-up of the membership but I do know it also includes several fully paid up European Tour members.

[David_Tepper]

Marc,

It would not surprise me at all if a sizeable percentage of the membership at Queenwood, Loch Lomond, Doonbeg, etc. was from the US - investment bankers, CEO's , jet-setters, etc.

DT

[Joel_Stewart]

The two developers of Queenwood are Americans, one of them (Walter Forbes) also built Nantuckett GC.  The membership is limited to 350 members of which only 50 are international so I doubt its going to be an American type club.

Is Queenwood better than Kyle Phillips course "The Grove"?  Has anyone played both?

[Philip Gawith]

i think the other developer goes by the name of fred green. the financier bob greenhill, also involved in nantucket, i think may also have played a role. i think there are quite a few transatlantic type members - mostly bankers - but the half dozen or so people who i know who belong are all english.

i have not played the grove. aside from the respective merits of the courses, i think they are quite different propositions inasmuch as the grove is attached - i think - to a hotel, and aspires to host big tournaments ( i think they may be taking one of the WCG tournaments there). queenwood is just golf, and private.