Laser leveling vs Classical Architecture

[gookin]

For the past year, I have been working on a long range plan for Fox Chapel Golf Club.  Of the many issues we face, there was absolute agreement on our Green Committee that laser leveling must be part of the plan. Then two weeks ago two of our Committee members returned from a visit to Fisher's Island.  We were given the chance to see part of their master plan developed in 1997.  The section on tees suggested that laser leveling was in direct conflict with classic architecture under the following theory:
1) traditional layouts did not have perfectly level tees.
2) lumps and slopes provide character.
3) the player can find a lie that matches he required shot, slightly above to draw etc.
4) please avoid roller coaster tees, but 2 to 3 degrees variation is desireable.
5) with laser leveled tees all the charm and character that characterize the ability to create shots is lost.
6) thought and awareness are lost.

I have found these arguements to be very compelling.  I have a new distaste for the "perfect" tee.  I would love to hear others views.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

It's difficult to determine if that was the architect's original intent, or, if it's a product of shoddy workmanship, Father Time, improper topdressing and maintainance, erosion, insufficient funds, drainage, nature, or a combination of some or all of the above.

If this subject has become an issue, I'd suggest finding out what CBM, SR, CB, DR, AM, AWT, GT, WF and others thought about the subject of designing, constructing and maintaining tees.

On the surface, it seems that they would be concerned with all of the issues I raised above, and that tees would have been built "properly" if the funds were available.

[Mike Nuzzo]

It gives me a headache just thinking about designing contour in a tee.  There is very little room.  You could have the left side 2% sloping to the left and converse on the right.  But the middle wouldn't drain so well, and it would still look a little sterile.  Greens surface drain well because there is significant slope, especially at the edges, more like 8%.  Now you would probably want to walk mow the tees.  It's important to have them not slope opposite of the general terrain, otherwise they look very sloped.  1% upill is pretty helpful, most average players wouldn't fare so well on a 1% downhill tee.  I would love to hear about someone who designs quirky tees.
Cheers

[Jeff_Mingay]

I recall hearing/reading that C.B. Macdonald originally designed convex tees at NGLA so right-handed golfers could drive from the left side of the tee if they wanted to hook the ball, and vice versa.

Perhaps Raynor incorporated that theory at Fisher's Island?

I guess the bottom line is, 99% of golfers prefer a relatively flat tee these days.

[Bill_McBride]

Jeff, relatively flat is fine, but it still has to drain!

[Jeff_Mingay]

"Relatively" was the operative word, Bill.

[Brad Klein]

David, interesting issue. I hope the seriousness of this debate on tees extends to parallel debates on classic approaches to trees, cross bunkers and fairway width as well at Fox Chapel.

By the way, here's Donald Ross on tees: "There are two, and only two, inflexible rules for laying out a tee. It should be big, and the top must be perfectly level."

My bet is the 1920s equivalent of laser-leveling was aligning it with string.

[ed_getka]

David,
  I would think there are FAR more important issues that would enhance your golf course. I am not a very good golfer but I cannot conceive of a tee having enough slope/contour to lead me to believe it could help me shape a shot. Although I have to admit I prefer not to tee off "downhill".
   If I was making the decision, the primary objective would be drainage, followed by enough space to allow the markers to be moved around to allow divots to heal.
    The only other consideration would be rounded tees vs. squared off tees. I have seen that discussed here before.
     
    Whatever you are considering doing to the greens is of much more significance IMHO. Good luck with your project.

[TEPaul]

David B:

Without offering an opinion on the subject and question you're asking here---yet, let me just say I have real admiration for the way you and your compatriots at Fox Chapel are going about researching and reaching out for opinions and information for Fox Chapel G.C, certainly including coming onto this website the way you have, and the ways and means with which you all plan to handle the course and your on-going project!

Golfclubatlasers:

Fox Chapel G.C is the best example to date of a golf club and course undergoing architectural self-scrutiny that uses this site as a resource tool. We need to cultivate more and more of that. Are we up to it?

[gookin]

TEP,
Thanks for your kind words.

Brad,

All of these issues are getting thorough scrutiny.  What makes is fun is that on so many of these issues it is not hard to find experts that disagree. Our objective is to make certain we learn all sides of every issue, then do what we think works best for us.  We were lucky to get the blueprint from Raynor.  If we pay any attention we can't get too far off track.

[gookin]

ed getka,

I agree the tee issue is a small one in the scope of our project.  But I could not resist getting input on the issue here. We are lucky that our greens are relatively untouched since 1925.  We have one or two major green ideas; restore our lions mouth at #9 and the double plateau at #13.  Much of our work will focus on fairway shaping and restoring many cross bunkers which have been removed over the years ( about 20 in total).  It is amazing how when armed with information on an issue the members can be very supportive of the Green Chairman.

[Mike_Trenham]

My fear would be creating something that looks out of place on a course from your era.  Laser level tees are not in keeping with what was created orginally.  Yes use all of the benefits of modern construction techniques but make it look like it was original is my thought.  

What would you strive for if restoring a building from this same era?  

[Craig Sweet]

Perhaps we should use hickory shafts and punky balls as well?

[Peter Galea]

The laser is another tool in the arsenal. Just like a cell phone, computer, fax machine or hydraulic mower.

For God sakes make the tees halfway level. If the laser turns your stomach, use an old brass hand level, folding rule and screed.

[ed_getka]

David,
   What sort of fairway shaping are you talking about? Could you try to describe the lion's mouth on #9 you refer to? I have never seen that term before. Have you determined who will be doing the work? Thanks for the feedback.

[gookin]

ed,

Regarding fairway shaping, I mean eliminating the bowling alley look that has evolved out of the modern day irrigation systems.  We are looking at our old aerial photo's and using them as a guide to return our fairways more closely to the original.  In some cases this has required the removal of trees which had been planted where the fairways once were.  It has been an exciting effort which has restored some of the strategic choices off the tee. When we are finished, I would expect that total fairway acreage will increase 10-15%.

An example of the Lion's Mouth can be seen on this site under CC of Charleston.  The Lion's Mouth is similar to the Road Hole bunker, but in our case the green actually wrapped around the bunker. In the original design, if you're ball came to rest on the front right with a front left pin, you could be on the green with a shot over the bunker.

Brian Silva is our consulting architect.  I would expect that projects will be tackled in stages over time and are likely to be handled in house.  Too early to know for sure.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redanman,

I laser leveled tees in 1991 and they're as good today as they were 13 years ago.  

Why wouldn't you laser level tees ?

[Brad Klein]

Anyone who didn't laser-level tees today would open themselves up for a lawsuit if there was a subsequent problem and the tees needed renovation. An owner will insist on it and a designer would be a fool not to rely upon this simple piece of technology to avoid problems. To quote the great German social philosopher Theodore Adorno, the critique of modern science doesn't mean you should avoid modern medical care if you're sick.

[Tom_Doak]

A lawsuit, Brad?  C'mon.

I personally think laser-leveled tees are VERY overrated in the grand scheme of things.

However, I don't think they are at all incompatible with the design style of Seth Raynor, who after all was an engineer and built most of his features to an engineered style.  I'd be more likely to recommend them on a Raynor course than on a MacKenzie or Travis course, but usually, we don't make any recommendations on that score ... our consulting clients just spend the money if they feel the need.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I've had experience with a laser level, too. And, like Tom Doak, I feel they're probably a little over-rated.

We used a laser level recently on a large (18,00 sq. ft.) practice range tee, and it was helpful. But, we didn't use a laser level on one tee at Blackhawk GC. They're fine. And so are the tees at a course I'm in the midst of renovating, where we didn't use a laser level either.

A laser level is very, very new technology. People figured out how to surface drain tees hundreds of years ago. It's not rocket science. (Fingers crossed though, hopefully I'm never sued for a poor surface drainage scheme!)

[Brad Klein]

Well, maybe not a lawsuit, but certainly a difference of opinion as to who is responsible if there's any subsequent problem or settling of the tee and repairs are needed. Most construction specs will ask for something like that if the project is to be bid, won't they? Besides, given the uneven nature of many contractors today, it helps to have laser-leveling to ensure their work is up to standard.

I don't think it's a panacea, and I know it can be overdone.  I've even heard of one designer who tilts his tees one percent front to back and a half a percent right to left, or something like that, and adjusts them from there on par-3s.

[Joe Hancock]

Do any of the historians on this site have any golden-age blueprint records that show contour on tee tops?

I think Pat has it about right.

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

redanman,

It's silly and affectatious, over-done, and just plain ridiculous.  Overkill.  Close to level is good enough.

Tees aren't supposed to be level, they need pitch for drainage, so close to level won't cut it.

When you fix a broken leg do you tell the patient that CLOSE to straight is good enough ?

Do you guess where the fracture is, or do you take an X-Ray ?

I don't think you understand the process.  And, I'm not sure that you understand the other methods employed for tee construction.  What's the difference between a transit and a laser ?  Do you have any personal experience with lasering or tthe alternative methods of constructing tees. ?  [/color]

It's not like stereotactic intra-cranial tumor excision with a laser.  A laser is just a tool. Technology in search of application.

In Orthopedics we always have called it technology insearch of disease.

Can we devine from your post that you're against laparoscopic surgery as a tool in orthopedic and other surgeries ?

How about the use of Gamma knives and Proton Beam Therapy ?  Should we discard the benefit of those technologies ?

Where technology can be useful, efficient and labor saving, why not use it, in medicine or construction ? [/color]

If we get that precise with our golf swings we won't get done before dark.  On June 21st.  In Dornoch, fer chrisake.

Different disciplines.
Since daylight, money and craftsmanship are precious why not use all, wisely ?[/color]  

[Pat K]

laser leveling is a way to produce a smooth surface in a short period of time. I have resurfaced tees with and without laser leveling. You can produce a pitch in any direction either way. The laser just expedites the process. A laser can't be used on many of our small tees because of the room needed for the tractor and grader box. I think what is more important to the look and feel of the tee is not so much how the top is finished but how the tee is blended into the surrounding landscape. A smooth tee surface with the proper shaping of the surrounds will look and feel proper no matter how the surface is graded. A laser level doesn't make a level tee unless it is programmed to so. It can be set for any pitch desired.  

[Dunlop_White]

Yes, in restoration, part of the endeavor is making tees look and feel old and original -- as if they have always been there.

Laser leveling, which provides a smooth and relatively flat surface, looks and feels much too new -- to me-- without the quirky settlings that provides much of the antiquated character and charm.

This applies to many other areas of tee restoration. Sure, architects must also integrate the tee in naturally with the surrounding landforms. Here, tie-ins to grade are important -- and elevations created by the foundation and fill should be kept to a minimum.

Other considerations involve whether the corners are going to be squared-off, and whether the tee is going to be aligned with the target area? Contrary to common belief, many classical tees were rounded; they were also offset from the centerline of the hole; and they didn't necessarily face the intended direction of play.

In my opinion, tees overly-elevated off of grade -- that have been laser leveled -- which are aligned with the centerline of the hole -- with squared-off corners -- which face the direction of play -- look much too cookie-cutter new to be applied as a model for restorations. Plus, some architectural intent would be destroyed without the angles set forth by the offset and misalignment.