Where do you see Cuscowilla on a modified Doak Scale...

[Tyler Kearns]

John/Tom,

"Plastic ring around the greens"  
Could somebody please explain!

TK

[THuckaby2]

John and Tom Huckaby were jousting on Pasatiempo.

"Huck,

Doak gives Pasatiempo a 7...

JK:

He does?  Hmmmm... sounds low to me.  Not that I doubt you, but I want to see the proof.     And what the hell, what does Doak know anyway."


I know there is almost veneration on this site for Pasatiempo, but I think that Tom has it about right.

   

Thanks, Bob.

Oh... you mean Tom DOAK...

 

Seriously, to me it's relative.  If Pasa's a 7, then Cuscowilla is a 6.5.  Based on the wording of the definitions, well... I can't see either as lower than 8.  But as I say, I am easily pleased.

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Solid 7 with a good chance to get up around 9.  Relies a bit too heavily on the greens and surrounds.  #9 could use a back tee to make it into a mid-lenght par 5 (there are three other long par 4s already on the course).  The cute #11 should be cleaned up around the banks, with perhaps the tee extended a bit into the lake (very shallow there).  Perhaps eliminate the first bunker over the creek on #14 to provide an option from the right side (leave the tree in the fairway).  Cut the last tree next to the green on #7, and loosen up the bunker sand.  Manage the green speeds and pin placements.  Do all these things, and it is a 9 in my book.

It is at least a half point better than Pasa; quite possibly a whole point.

[Brent Hutto]

Tyler,

All of the greens at Cuscowilla have a piece of plastic edging slightly below the surface between the green proper (Bent) and the fringe (Bermuda). It helps prevent enroachment of the Bermuda into the Bent. For some reason, this plastic had almost surfaced in many places at Cuscowilla (unlike other courses I've seen) so that the ball could possibly strike it in certain spots. I only know of one shot of mine that hit the plastic and it almost certainly cost me a stroke, deflecting a bump and run shot that was flying directly toward the hole off at a 30-degree angle and leaving a tough sidehill chip shot instead of a simple putt.

[Michael Whitaker]

Lou -

"Relies a bit too heavily on the greens and surrounds."
I agree that the course is primarily a short game course.  Length is very important on a few holes, but a good short game is essential. Most holes really begin when you reach the greens.

"#9 could use a back tee to make it into a mid-length par 5."
I concur. As a matter of fact, the same could be said of #18.

"The cute #11 should be cleaned up around the banks."
I agree for one reason... it would make the right bunker more visible. It is nearly hidden now by the bushes.

"...with perhaps the tee extended a bit into the lake."
Could be a interesting angle... I'll have to give that some thought.

"Perhaps eliminate the first bunker over the creek on #14 to provide an option from the right side (leave the tree in the fairway)."
I like this idea. It does seem "tight" across that bank with the three bunkers.

"Cut the last tree next to the green on #7."
Again, I agree! # 7 feels like too much of a zig-zag for a short hole as it now stands.

"Loosen up the bunker sand."
Disagree! I thought the bunkers played great. You might need a sandwedge with less bounce.

"Manage the green speeds and pin placements."
Agree. I don't think the greens are usually that fast or the pin positions that difficult. My caddie on Sunday said the greens were as quick as he had ever seen out there, and that a number of the pin positions were "cruel."

[Tom_Doak]

I would give Cuscowilla a strong 7 on the real Doak scale, if I were still rating courses.  I might have gone to 8 a couple of years ago, to separate it out as the second-best of Bill and Ben's courses behind Sand Hills; but now Friars Head is certainly ahead of it, too.

I do think it is a better course than Pasatiempo in its present state [with a handful of poorly modified greens, too many trees, and too many houses].  I am sure I would have rated the opening-day version of Pasatiempo higher than Cuscowilla, but we are never likely to play that course in the future; there are too many lawyers in California now.

[THuckaby2]

I would give Cuscowilla a strong 7 on the real Doak scale, if I were still rating courses.  I might have gone to 8 a couple of years ago, to separate it out as the second-best of Bill and Ben's courses behind Sand Hills; but now Friars Head is certainly ahead of it, too.

I do think it is a better course than Pasatiempo in its present state [with a handful of poorly modified greens, too many trees, and too many houses].  I am sure I would have rated the opening-day version of Pasatiempo higher than Cuscowilla, but we are never likely to play that course in the future; there are too many lawyers in California now.

Dammit Tom, that is a perfectly well-reasoned answer to which I have no good rebuttal except to say that Pasa is as close to a really good home course as exists for me, so it gets big-time benefits of the doubt.    But of course you do know re "too many trees" and that "handful of poorly modified greens" us locals are counting on a certain someone to rectify that.  Oh, I understand it will never get back to 1930's motif.  But the improvements in the last few years have given us great hope for the future.  No pressure.

 

And what the hell, with grade inflation and my overly-sunny assessment skills, your seven equals my 8, so in the end we see these courses pretty much the same.

 

[RJ_Daley]

7.  An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interestiong holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

8.  One of the very best courses in its region (althugh there are more 8's in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see.  Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

I guess I'm at about 7.5, really.

I can't say it is among the "very best" in the region.  Yet, I'd certainly travel about 100 miles out of the way to play it and I had the time on another trip through there.  I would actually travel there again as a longer journey to join special friends like we had this last weekend.  But, I wouldn't travel any farther than a couple hours car ride to play it with folks that are sort of unappreciative about what one can find there if one looks.  

The bunker work and green construction is way beyond the description of a 7.  But, a few problems as have been gone over now quite at length, bring it well off the 8 scale.  If you admire construction and craftsmanship, I think it is a solid 8.  But, the maintenance meld thing about the roughs, double whammies of two hazards backing each other up to a distracting and slowing down the pace degree, and a few trees too many, bring it down to the middle from 8 towards 7.

[THuckaby2]

Dick - I'm not that far off from your assessment, and sorry if that means guilt by association.  

Your detailed view is hard to argue against, for sure.  My only take is I see it more as an 8 just because of the words defining 8... it meets all of those for me, and doesn't work re 7, as I've said.

But we are not far off.  You have it right, in any case.  I am just a fun-dominated, architecture-missing rube, when it comes down to it.

In any case, GO BADGERS!

TH

[JakaB]

Huck,

Is Winged Foot really only a point higher than Cuscowilla...I gotta give WF at least a 2.5 point bonus and you don't even have that left on your scale...

[Lou_Duran]

Mike W,

The sand at Cuscowilla is much more coarse than what I found at the seven other GA courses that I played on this trip, including three at the nearby Reynolds Plantation.  I had a hard time imparting much force (displacing enough sand), and my shots were invariably short with little spin.  I too thought that I needed a SW with less bounce, but either one of the caddies or a playing partner commented that more bounce was the answer (my Cleveland CG10 has 12*).  It may be the high clay content or just the way they're maintained, but I thought that given their depth and the severity of the greens, the bunkers were particularly penal.  My three bunker shots short left on #14 green did provide great amusement to those having lunch on the upstairs patio.  I am sure glad that all our guys were still out on the course.

Re: #11, when I was there in 2002, Lake Oconee was down a foot or two and I was able to walk out to a natural promontory well into the lake some 10 - 15 yards behind the current back tee.  The angle was awsome and the lake seemed to come into play a lot more.  It is a good hole as it is, but it does not take much advantage of the lake view.  And while there might be some permitting problems, nearby Great Waters has 10 holes on the lake, with much of the frontage free of excessive vegetation.  

[THuckaby2]

Huck,

Is Winged Foot really only a point higher than Cuscowilla...I gotta give WF at least a 2.5 point bonus and you don't even have that left on your scale...

I don't look at this too much in relative terms and don't really care how much one is above or below another.  I read the words and make the assessments based on that.

Based on the words, Winged Foot West is most definitely a 9, and I could see arguments for it being a 10, though I can't in good conscience put it there.

So it's one point better than Cuscowilla, and only a half better than Pasa.  I can live with that, to be honest.

TH

[JakaB]

Huck,

I can't live with it....as a matter of fact I went to the medicine cabinet and grabbed a rusty razor blade when at the last second it hit me...rusty...rustic....Rustic Canyon....Rustic must be a 6 or below on your scale......My God you saved my life....a sense of laughter and relief hit me....thank you, thank you...

[RJ_Daley]

Lou, not that I have a great deal of skills in the bunker play department, but as I had mentioned, I found Cusco about the same texture as my home course bunkers.  There, the drainage is getting poor and clay-silt migrates to the top and makes the consistency about what we saw last weekend at Cusco.  Didn't you make a trip to the practice range bunker and hit a few dozen out of there?  I guess it is all a matter of preferance.   I found the perfect nature of the Reynolds course bunkers more like a whitebread, bland character, too perfect sort of aura.

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