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blasbe1

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2004, 06:04:43 PM »
Devereaux Emmett was gay?!?!   :o

Why, I thought the little man was just mildly eccentric and dashingly dapper, with just a curiously strong fascination with fashion, theatre, and his mother?

 

I was as shocked as you Mike ;D

Much earlier in my posting days my first exposure to TPaul was one of his regarding Glen Head and as I recall little Devie was basically called to the mat as a girlie man in first rate Arnold (I'm not even going to try to spell his last name) style.  You can imagine my surprise.   :o

TEPaul

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2004, 06:12:44 PM »
“TE
Thanks for the suggestions...I'll file it right between your research on Dev Emmet the world's first Gay golf architect, homophobic Walter Travis, the evolution of architecture known as the “transexualized style” and your insightful comments regarding Tripp Davis’s restoration of Engineers.”

Ah God, I’ll tell you Tom, you may be a big purveyor of historic articles and photos on golf architecture but when the Old Man handed out the sense of humor allotment who knows where you were. Is it remotely possible for you to stop taking yourself so seriously all the time? Why bother to respond to that post of mine though? Why don’t you talk about why you really don’t have the guts to take Jason Blasberg up on his kind offer that couldn’t possibly help but be educational for you and perhaps some of us too. It pains me to say this but I think Patrick Mucci has been dead right about you all along in which case his correctness percentage has probably just shot up to around 15%!   ;)

“Devereaux Emmett was gay?!?!  
Why, I thought the little man was just mildly eccentric and dashingly dapper, with just a curiously strong fascination with fashion, theatre, and his mother?”

MikeC:

Thank God your sense of humor is working but I have no idea if Devereaux was gay or a Casinova. I only said that stuff about his Gay Architecture because that photo of him in his bio was so funny. Talk about the “Cat in the Hat”. For all I know Devereaux Emmet may’ve just been trying to be more like Tom Wolffe. I also mentioned Emmet’s Gay Architecture about six months ago to see if I could get Tom MacWood to lighten up just a snitch when he was telling everyone how much he knew about the entire architectural evolution of GCGC and what they should do despite never having laid eyes on the place. But I won’t try that again---there’s no point.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2004, 06:16:16 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2004, 06:15:25 PM »
Jason;

We both should have known better when it was rumored that Dev's trademark design moundings weren't known as "Mae Wests", but instead as "Teddy's Tush", as in the bespactled, mustachioed, Roughriding former President's ample backside.  

Apparently, Emmett was also known for coming up with the phrase, "gotta love them Cowboys!!" used later by the Dallas NFL franchise.  

TEPaul

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2004, 06:19:50 PM »
MikeC:

Do you realize if Devereaux had come within arm's length of Teddy's tush the world of golf architecture would never have had GCGC and a host of other great Emmet courses? Devereaux Emmet would've been a dead man!

T_MacWood

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2004, 06:39:09 PM »
Mike
From what I understand Oliver Stone is producing a movie on Emmet, and TE's writing the screenplay.....it should hit theaters sometime after Seawane's centenary. By that time Jason should be club president and they'll be on their fifth interprative architect

TE
How's that background research coming?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2004, 06:40:51 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2004, 06:59:27 PM »
"Mike
From what I understand Oliver Stone is producing a movie on Emmet, and TE's writing the screenplay.....it should hit theaters sometime after Seawane's centenary. By that time Jason should be club president and they'll be on their fifth interprative architect."

I'd be happy to write the screen play but I want Woody Allen to direct. I'm no fan at all of that pompous ass Oliver Stone. By the way, Jason, I'd like to say you're a stand up guy to invite contributors on here to play and study Sewane. If I were you though I'd invite one more Mike Cirba and drop Tom MacWood. What kind of remark is that about when you become the president the club will be on its fifth interpretative architect? That's as dumb and as gratuitous as the things MacWood has said about my club and its architecture, two things he's never seen and and has virtually no knowledgeable about but that doesn't stop him critiquing the golf course and the entire history of my club's membership

"TE
How's that background research coming?"

Pretty good so far. MikeC supplied a dynamite story-line about Devie and Teddy's Tush. I'd say that's great background.

T_MacWood

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #81 on: November 23, 2004, 07:01:37 PM »
TE
Lighten up.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #82 on: November 23, 2004, 07:07:41 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Have you EVER judged an architectural feature SOLELY on its MERITS, and not on its AUTHOR ?

That's what I'm asking you to do, and that seems to be what you're either incapable of, or fear the most.... that you'll like and appreciate the feature based on its merits, and not on its designer.

The 14th hole at Hollywood is a perfect example.

First you trashed ALL of Rees's work there, but, when you saw it in person, you changed your mind, you claimed it was brilliant.  How do you reconcile your two, divergent opinions of the exact same work ?


T_MacWood

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #83 on: November 23, 2004, 07:50:57 PM »
Pat
I believe you are mistaken about my past comments about the 14th at Hollywood and trashing the golf course generally. Although you continually asked my opinion of 14th (and other features Hollywood) I always refused to judge the merits of the course (and Rees's changes to the 14th). That was my point on my post above...you often confuse documentation of changes with a judgment of the course's merits.


Hollywood's 14th pre-Rees

I always judge a course based on its merits. For example I'm a great admirer of Alison and Gil Hanse...I was not overly impressed with Century (good, but not that good) and I don't believe Gil's restoration quite got Alison right.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2004, 08:07:04 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #84 on: November 23, 2004, 09:04:02 PM »
"For example I'm a great admirer of Alison and Gil Hanse...I was not overly impressed with Century (good, but not that good) and I don't believe Gil's restoration quite got Alison right."

Tom MacWood:

I'm a great admirer of what I've seen of Alison. I also admire Ross and Gil Hanse too who just did our course but if you're disappointed in what Gil did at Century because you think Gil didn't quite get Alison right, perhaps it's time you begin to understand that maybe Gil wasn't trying to get Alison right as you suggest. Perhaps Gil was trying to get a hole right and as good as it can be today. You don't seem particularly willing to accept that fact for some reason. Why is that? Is it possible for you to accept the fact that sometimes maybe original architects didn't exactly get something right or as good as it can be? Gil added a bunker right in front of our original Ross 18th hole's green. We all think it made the hole much better. Does that sound to you like something that shouldn't have been done because it changed an original Ross hole?

T_MacWood

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #85 on: November 23, 2004, 10:15:03 PM »
TE
What is your opinion of Century and how does it compare with the other Alison courses you've seen?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #86 on: November 23, 2004, 10:47:29 PM »
Tom MacWood,

No, you made a definitive statement regarding # 14 at Hollywood and Ree's work on that hole.

I asked you a specific question about # 14 green at Hollywood, and you said that Rees's work there was brilliant.

Tom, also look at those horrible little trees behind the green on the picture you posted.  Who do you think planted them ?
Hint:  It wasn't Rees.  And, if your powers of observation were keen that day, you probably noticed them all over the golf course.  You should know that Rees wanted to take down many trees planted over the years, long after Travis's work, and that he was precluded from doing so.  Fortunately, a major storm, some say a mini tornado, took out many trees a few years ago, and hopefully, the new President, a terrific fellow, will continue to clear the golf course of all of those trees damaged by that storm, this winter.

I've played Century a few of times, probably before Gil worked on the golf course.  It's hard to say what was original and what wasn't, but, Century had a mix of some very interesting holes and some so-so holes.  It was obvious that someone had planted trees indiscriminatlely over the years.

Century has had a very unique membership over the last 50 years and probably from inception.  Without benefit of sitting in on committee, Board and membership meetings, it's difficult, if not impossible to know what marching orders the architect was given, don't you think ?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2004, 10:53:41 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

blasbe1

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #87 on: November 24, 2004, 01:06:27 AM »
By that time Jason should be club president


Luck, Sir, plays a part!!!!

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2004, 02:05:23 AM »
Jason, you said the same thing about Seawane that I just wrote about Engineers.  It is the essence of the course that matters.  I liken this to the people who think of Hogan and Mo Norman as having the ultimate swings and every other swing as being only almost as good.  Wrong.  Today's best ball strikers have entered a higher stratisphere--I love my Hogan footage, but 2000 Tiger is incredible.  Golf courses may not necessarily be better, but there is no reason why courses cannot be continually improved.  When I played Royal Melbourne a couple of years ago, the 2 new bunkers looked original--more importantly, they made the course play better!

T_MacWood

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2004, 06:59:37 AM »
Pat
It would be easy enough to find out what his marching orders were....call him and ask him. I have no idea what they were, but I have told him my opinion of the golf course. If you compare Century and its two rivals, Fenway and Quaker Ridge, the most impressive IMO is Fenway (brilliantly restored by Gil), then Quaker Ridge followed by Century. Which is the exact opposite of their social status from what I understand. I'm not sure Century was ever in the same class as those other two courses.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2004, 07:01:04 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2004, 07:46:34 AM »
Tom MacW:

I've never seen Century and I really don't know much about Alison architcture. We had a tour this fall of Burning Tree but obviously a lot has changed there. I vaguely remember how pleasant Sea Island was but that was decades ago. I certainly was impressed by Hirono's old photographs but one can really only make out the old look of the course from those---looked very much like early PV to me. What I'm most familiar with is the four greens he designed at PVGC and all his instructions and playing logic that was on his hole drawings. Those obviously are impressive and those holes are as untouched as 80 year old holes can be from an architect. And I was particularly impressed by Alison's hole by hole analysis of Flynn's Shinnecock design before it went to construction.

TEPaul

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2004, 08:04:37 AM »
Robert Mercer Deruntz:

As far as I can tell from a number of these threads between Tom MacWood and others (Engineers, Century, Sewane et al) the issue always seems to be that Tom MacWood does not accept this idea known as "improvement" at all. It would be interesting to some day determine if he's advocating exact recreation of old features without any thought to how differently they may play today with changes in the game or not. Another factor may also be the "look" of some of the restored features he has a problem with. It may even be true to say that he does not believe some of the old architecture should be touched at all. When it comes to bunkers and such that's pretty hard not to do over the years as they do need to be repaired in various ways from time to time. And certainly just regular maintenance practices can change the look of old architecture, sometimes dramatically, unless there's some dedicated effort not to do that. That's something I've never really heard a course try to do though, except perhaps PVGC at various points over the decades.

T_MacWood

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2004, 08:57:54 AM »
TE
For whatever reason, you (and Pat) have a difficult time understanding my position on preserving important works of golf architecture. I’ve explained my position many times….I’ll explain it once again. IMO there are relatively small number of golf courses that should be preserved and/or restored--courses like Engineers, Fishers Island, Hollywood, GCGC and Yale—landmark designs.

Some of these courses were great the moment they opened the doors, many others evolved into greatness and there is a subjective process of determining an architectural high point. As an example GCGC was originally laid out by Emmet/Hubbel, it was significantly improved by Travis, improved again by Emmet in the 20’s and finally by Tilly in the early 30’s.

Each golf course has a different history and so each course should be evaluated on its unique architectural history. Does that mean an important golf course can not be improved today…no. But I’m extremely leery of improvements based upon examples like Inverness, GCGC (post WWII), Riviera and Sea Island.

IMO these landmark designs should be preserved for future generations to study and enjoy. I believe these clubs should be realistic when evaluating their golf courses. Most of these courses have moved tees as far back as possible to adjust for technology…I have no problem with that as long as it doesn’t compromise some other aspect of the design…it is preferable to moving bunkers.

Many of these landmark courses were at one time championship venues, but realistically they can no longer stand up to the very best players…so what. If you are a club that possesses an important golf course that your members can enjoy every day of the golf year, why would you care if a Long Island club pro wants a stiffer challenge for some local event or why would you want to compromise your important design to co-host a US Am pre-qualifier for one weekend every twenty-five years…especially if you have a course with the prestige of a Somerset Hills or Maidstone firmly entrenched in the top 100. Courses like Engineers and Hollywood could take their place with these clubs if they realistically evaluated their golf courses and took stock in what they have and what they once had.

Based upon what I’ve seen of Century it was always a good course, but never a great course…I would not consider it a landmark design. As far as my comments are concerned, I thought the restored bunkering looked more like Tilly than Alison. That is my observation take, it for what it is worth. Regarding Seawane, I have said I know very little about the golf course and wish I knew more about Emmet. I have no idea if it was a landmark design and have no opinion on the current course’s merits.

One of the reasons it often appears I’m some kind of zealot is because this site is focused on the best of the best and often landmark designs become the topic of conversation.

Hopefully I won’t have to explain my thoughts on this subject for a while.

TEPaul

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2004, 10:17:42 AM »
Tom MacWood:

You don't have to explain your point to any of us again. We do understand what you're saying, at least I do. It's not that I don't understand your point it's simply that I (and probably a number of others) don't really agree with it. In general and in theory of course we agree with much of what you're driving at but the fact is when a club is undergoing even a restoration project they do have to get into some areas of design and architecture that are more actual than your theoretical take on things.

To be specific, I think we all agree with you that adding tee length to a hole where it can be done easily is generally a non-invasive thing to do architecturally. In some cases that's simply not possible, though, so what's to be done to bring a hole like that up to the expected standard of strategic concept and/or shot value it once was and was designed to be? You tell us! That kind of thing is probably the specifics of where some of us disagree with you, even if this is on courses you consider in that category of great and untouchable. This is where we talk about the idea of improvement which you appear to reject even in prinicple. None of us really like to get into touching the mid-body of a great holes architecture but if the hole has zero elasiticity what's to be done--you tell us. If you reply just leave it alone completely in some state of strategic, concept and shot value obsolesence, I'm afraid that's not just unrealistic, it's actually unacceptable. That's sort of taking your eye off the ball on what's at the base of truly great architecture in the first place. Every golf hole has to constantly pass some kind of "play test" that some refer to as "passing the test of time". That means, in play, if you're not aware of that.

The fact is, in my opinion, you're simply too oblivious to what club memberships want to do to maintain the playability of their golf course which logically can include all their holes. You say why should they care about what some local pro does there or about some qualifier or tournament or such.

That's not the way it is in most all clubs, Tom, and one of these days you'll probably have to come to realize that or just continue to be considered by some of us to be the unrealistic purist dreamer we believe you are in some cases.

The point here is that almost all these clubs that are classics and considered to be great or once were do have a contingent of players in their memberships who are good players and like any other member they want to be considered in how the course plays for them! On could probably make the point that this is even truer with those courses that were and are considered great! This group in most every club is not insignificant and cannot be disregarded as you seem to think they should be in the name of your perscription for preserving great architecture.

In my opinion, as long as you continue to set your self apart as a type of academic or purist architectural analyst who refuses to take seriously these realities we will always probably have these differences of opinions. It's too bad you haven't been or can't be involved in some of these projects from the perspective of a club membership as some of us have been.  

At the very least it does give anyone a dose of the realities of this stuff---something I don't think you have. The sad thing to me is you don't seem to even want to acknowledge it, and to me that's not living or thinking in the real world. It's dreaming, the very thing many of us have always accused you of doing and probably will continue to.

Perhaps you actually think your purpose would be served better if you do stay above the fray of the inevitable realities of these things that go on in every club and course that goes through even a restoration project. But one can never avoid that fray if you actually get involved which you don't seem to ever want to do. That's fine by me, but you should learn to acknowledge reality if you want to be an effective golf architecture analyst, in my opinion.

So, I think we understand your postion on all this just fine, at least I think I do, and you should understand ours. As far as agreeing, that's not so important, in my book.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2004, 10:25:53 AM by TEPaul »

blasbe1

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2004, 10:27:38 AM »
By that time Jason should be club president


Luck, Sir, plays a part!!!!

After further consideration I revise that statement, luck, in these matters, has absolutely nothing to do with it, unless it's misfortune.    

Mike_Cirba

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2004, 10:32:27 AM »
MikeC:

Do you realize if Devereaux had come within arm's length of Teddy's tush the world of golf architecture would never have had GCGC and a host of other great Emmet courses? Devereaux Emmet would've been a dead man!

Au Contraire, Monsieur Paul.  

As can be seen in this never before released photograph, the two men can be seen cavorting, hunting, fishing, and laying out holes for a proposed Emmett designed course near Hyde Park.   ;)

Emmett's mustache was said to have been inspired by his close admiration of the President's.  Gives whole new meaning to the "Bull Moose Party", doesn't it?  



I'm off to apply for a job as a stringer for "The Daily Globe".  

« Last Edit: November 24, 2004, 10:47:12 AM by Mike_Cirba »

blasbe1

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #96 on: November 24, 2004, 10:36:22 AM »
If you compare Century and its two rivals, Fenway and Quaker Ridge, the most impressive IMO is Fenway (brilliantly restored by Gil), then Quaker Ridge followed by Century. Which is the exact opposite of their social status from what I understand. I'm not sure Century was ever in the same class as those other two courses.

Tom:

I'm finding it hard to comprehend the relevance of social status regarding anything GCA related.  

T_MacWood

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2004, 11:29:49 AM »
TE
Based upon commets like this "As far as I can tell from a number of these threads between Tom MacWood and others (Engineers, Century, Sewane et al) the issue always seems to be that Tom MacWood does not accept this idea known as "improvement" at all." I don't think you do understand. I've mentioned anything about the imporvments at Seawane or Century.


"To be specific, I think we all agree with you that adding tee length to a hole where it can be done easily is generally a non-invasive thing to do architecturally. In some cases that's simply not possible, though, so what's to be done to bring a hole like that up to the expected standard of strategic concept and/or shot value it once was and was designed to be? "

Give me a specific example and I'll tell you.

"In my opinion, as long as you continue to set your self apart as a type of academic or purist architectural analyst who refuses to take seriously these realities we will always probably have these differences of opinions."

Somebody has to do it...obviously you are not equiped to bring this information to light....you were to busy congratualting Tripp Davis on his fine work at Engineers (I'm pretty sure you've never seen the course at anytime and have no knowledge of Strong's original design).

There are plenty of advocates for the restoration architects, and the members, we all hope the members can stand up for themselves...but who is defending the original architect? Not too many. Tommy and Geoff Shackelford at Riviera, Geoff Childs at Yale, Jeff Mingay with some of Thompson's designs, Mike Cirba at Merion and yours truly with handful of others. I'm sure there are others (Pat at GCGC) who I have failed to mention, but you aren't one of them.

Speeking of members, if anything I feel sorry for the membership of these clubs, I think they have been misled by a minority, including a number of architects.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2004, 12:16:09 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2004, 11:53:12 AM »
Mike Cirba, you research genius:

That's the most amazing photo imaginable and so apropos to  this discussion. This website never ceases to amaze me by the incredible things some of the contributors can produce at a moment's notice!

Good Show!!

Mike_Cirba

Re:Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9
« Reply #99 on: November 24, 2004, 12:10:12 PM »
Mike Cirba, you research genius:

That's the most amazing photo imaginable and so apropos to  this discussion. This website never ceases to amaze me by the incredible things some of the contributors can produce at a moment's notice!

Good Show!!

Yes, Tom...

This clandestine photo was hidden from the public for years by the President's key advisors due to a few very obvious factors;

1) Emmett's whispered reputation in certain circles as a "Pansy", and how that might look to voters and the genteel public of 1914.

2) Emmett's obvious physical excitement evident in the photo, almost certainly caused by his physical proximity to the Great Man himself.  

3) The location of Emmett's right hand in the photograph cannot be verified with any authenticity, leading to much speculation.

4) T.R.'s obvious "winking" to the cameraman (speculated by others to be more akin to a "wince") similarly served as a source of internal administration gossip and speculation.

   
« Last Edit: November 24, 2004, 12:11:27 PM by Mike_Cirba »

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