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Mark_Rowlinson

Re:Who made the Oldest Courses of England?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2004, 10:40:47 AM »
Hey!  Why all this stuff about Scotland?  It's an English thread.  We've given you your parliament, let us return to being English.  (We could let you have a Prime Minister and Chancellor, too!)

ForkaB

Re:Who made the Oldest Courses of England?
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2004, 11:43:42 AM »
"To assume otherwise is to play fast and loose with the facts."

That seems a bit strong...even for a habitual contrarian. I'm fairly well versed in golf history, and I wouldn't characterize Price's work as playing fast and loose with the facts. I'm certain Geddes' book is fascinating, but I'm not sure what bearing it has upon this thread which is related to formalized golf courses and golf architecture. Price's book is focused upon golf courses, not a handful of my relatives with their sheep beating a ball around the dunes in 1700. And anyway Price's golf courses for the most part match Geddes findings of a century earlier...they appear to support one another...and the idea that the game was not all that popular in Scotland in the 1850's (and 1700's for that matter)...the game took off and golf course development took off in the 1890's...I hope that's not too fast and loose for you.

Tom

It is still too fast and loose for me, alas, but that's your "ideal maintenance meld" and I'll allow you that idiosyncracy.

Mark

Sorry for contributing to the hijack :-[.  BTW,you can have your parliament back if you want it.  Just send us a check for £450 million or so..........No need to send back Blair and Brown--they were OK when they left Scotland, but now are damaged goods. ;)

TEPaul

Re:Who made the Oldest Courses of England?
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2004, 12:22:35 PM »
"Hey!  Why all this stuff about Scotland?  It's an English thread."

MarkR:

Who wrote this?

"If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
that is for ever England."

TEPaul

Re:Who made the Oldest Courses of England?
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2004, 12:27:36 PM »
"Tom
It is still too fast and loose for me, alas, but that's your "ideal maintenance meld" and I'll allow you that idiosyncracy."

Rich, you better not be so fast and loose with my terms without giving me credit or placing a service mark on it or you'll be hearing from my attorney.


Adam_F_Collins

Re:Who made the Oldest Courses of England?
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2004, 01:15:40 PM »
When and where do 18 holes become the norm?

My interest in this thread stems from trying to relate golf course development, first to people and places relative to time - in order to look for influences (political, social, artistic, philosophical) along the way. And I'm interested in the earliest times in particular. Before the boom.


Mark_Rowlinson

Re:Who made the Oldest Courses of England?
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2004, 02:15:15 PM »
Tom,

Thank you for reminding me of Rupert Brooke.  Strangely enough there's a bit of American soil but two or three miles from Grantchester, the American War Cemetary putside Cambridge.  The Stars and Stripes fly there and we Brits may enter without a machine-readable passport.  I took an American friend there after a concert in Cambridge a couple of years ago and he wept.

Mark.

Andy Levett

Re:Who made the Oldest Courses of England?
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2004, 02:04:23 PM »
Are either of the following statements true?

The rise in the popularity of golf in Scotland and Ireland was primarily a working class phenomenon.

The rise in the popularity of golf in England and the US was primarily an upper class phenomenon.

Bob

I'd suggest  upper middle class rather than upper class in England. Though sometimes  they hired  Scottish professionals (eg Mungo Park, who did  Alnmouth Village in 1869, the same year as Royal Liverpool) often  skilled English gentleman amateur players who had played in Scotland and wanted the same thing at home,  laid out courses themselves.
 An example was Dr McCuaig, a prominent player in his day, who created the first course at Seaton Carew in 1876. One of his holes, Doctors, was so good that when a rather better-known medic turned architect, Dr MacKenzie, was called in to redesign the course nearly 50 years later he recommended that hole should be left as it was.
 A little later Rye was  created in the same way when a keen and proficient golfer  wanted somewhere local to play when he wasn't attending to his legal practice. His name was Harry Colt, who was subsequently to give up the law and pioneer the profession of golf course architect.

BCrosby

Re:Who made the Oldest Courses of England?
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2004, 02:23:46 PM »
Andy -

Interesting. And your take makes sense. Given the different social structures in the UK and the US, I should have figured  that "upper class" means different things to each.

Bob



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