Who made the Oldest Courses of England?

[Adam_F_Collins]

Here's a triplet of questions for you:

• What some of the oldest courses in England?
(note these don't have to exist today)

• Who designed and built them?
(If you know who commissioned them, that would be helpful)

• In what year(s)?

Also, anyone who can point out a good written resource for this type of information...?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Royal Blackheath reckons to date from 1608.  They don't play the course any more, abandoning it some time shortly after WW1 because of increased motor traffic over the heath.  You can still see vestiges of it today.

Old Manchester 1818.  It's a club without a course these days.  

The oldest club still playing golf on its original site, though no longer the same course, is Royal North Devon (1864)

Next behind that is Royal Wimbledon (1865) - not the same course and probably a different venue.  I suspect that Wimbledon Common is their old site as London Scottish (1865) play there.  Wimbledon Common is a public course (1908) and it's possible that's when Royal Wimbledon moved to their current site.

Royal Liverpool, I guess, comes next at 1869.

It doesn't answer all your questions but may spark off some rigorously researched answers.  These are off the top of my head.

[BCrosby]

Mark -

I'm surprised to see that golf caught on in England no more than thirty or so years before it did the the US. I would have thought that there were dozens of English clubs dating back to the 18th century or earlier.

It appears that golf was only (or almost only) a Scottish game for a couple hundred years before it got to England in any scale.

Interesting.

Bob

PS - When were the earliest courses in Ireland built?

[Jack_Marr]

The Curragh Golf Club was founded in 1883 but apparently the golf course dates from 1852, making it the oldest in Ireland.

I think the Curragh, Portsalon and two or three other courses were the founding members of the GUI.

Here's something I found on the In-ter-net.

"In 1851 David Ritchie came to Ireland from his native Edinburgh, where he had been a member of the ancient golf club at Musselburgh (founded 1774). On his death in 1910 it was reported that he claimed 'to be the oldest golfer in Ireland, as he had ample proof of playing with the late Mr. Alexander Love on links he organised on the Curragh in the early 1850's. In 1852 the Earl of Eglington, who was British Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and founder Captain of Prestwick Golf Club (1851), played on the Curragh. On 12th March 1883 the Irish Times newspaper carried the following announcement: 'Maj. Gen. Fraser, V.C., C.B Commanding the Curragh Brigade, has sanctioned the formation of a garrison golf club. The Rules of the Club will be the same as those of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club, St.Andrews.' Membership was confined to Officers of the Curragh British Garrison and there was neither an entry fee or subscription. By 1889 the course was eighteen holes and affiliated to the Golfing Union of Ireland. On 24th September 1910 the title 'Royal' was conferred on the Curragh Golf Club, a title, though not normally used, is still valid.

The Curragh Golf Club continues to maintain a tradition of military and civilian participation in the management of it's affairs. The Club centenary in 1983 was marked by the presence of the Captains of the Royal & Ancient, Royal Musselburgh and Prestwick, all of which have historic connections with the Curragh. "

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Bob,

I think Royal Blackheath claims a fairly continuous history since 1608 but I know of no other before Manchester.  I'm sure there were some, at least while Scots were free to carry on their own business in England.  We had a few tiffs with the Scots and relationships were not always amicable.  

But weren't folks on your side of the pond playing golf at Charleston just after the ice melted?

Royal Calcutta goes back to 1829, Pau to 1856 and Royal Adelaide dates from 1869 (the oldest in Oz?).  

Tenby is officially the oldest club in Wales (1888) but that was the date of its formal constitution.  Golf was played at Conwy in the 1860s but it wasn't officially constituted until 1890.

I can't believe that there was nothing in England between Blackheath and Manchester and then Westward Ho! but as far as I am aware (and I'm not a historian) there isn't anything tangible.

[TEPaul]

"I'm surprised to see that golf caught on in England no more than thirty or so years before it did the the US. I would have thought that there were dozens of English clubs dating back to the 18th century or earlier."

Bob:

You know, I would've thought the same thing and it always surprised me golf didn't catch on much more much earlier in England. How or why could that have been? I guess the only real answer must be the English and the Scots really don't like each other and probably never have! Sometimes things like wars have a way of keeping things like reciprocity and communality to a bare minimum!  

[T_MacWood]

The game wasn't all that popular in Scotland either...it was only popular in small pockets....only 17 golf courses in 1850. Balfour and Hutchinson are credited with sparking the popularity of the game in England, but in reality their influence affected the popularity of the game in Scotland as well.

[BCrosby]

Odd isn't it? Within the same couple of decades golf became popular in each of England, Scotland, Ireland and the US. Even odder is that it had been around for a couple of hundred years previously without stirring up much interest.

What confluence of factors resulted in golf suddenly catching on in several different countries at about the same time?

Interesting.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Bob:

I'd say the fairly simultaneous expansion and reach of golf in that time (mid to late 1800s) had to do with the power and reach of the British Empire at that time---probably near to the pinnacle of its power. Don't forget it wasn't just the expansion of golf courses to areas it'd never been before---it was the fact the equipment had to follow and we know where all the early equipment came from back then. The transportation facility of that time had to all flow through the reach of the British Empire.

[wsmorrison]

I am surprised to hear there were only 17 golf courses in Scotland by 1850.  

The price of golf balls and clubs more than likely kept the sport confined to a  priviledged few.  Improvements in balls and implements allowed the game to spread among the lower classes.  

Railroads brought more people to the land golf was played on and increased the number of golfers.

Finally, golf architecture in the heathlands and on other inland sites created golf courses in areas beyond the linkslands to serve the growing playing populace.

[ForkaB]

Methinks Mr. MacWood is in error.  A brief skimming of my sources tell me that there were at least 20 actively frequented courses in Scotland by 1750 or so.  The game was first played in England in the early 1600's at Blackheath after James VI of Scotland decamped to England and became James I.  As to why it never really caught on in England until 250-300 years later?  As Hogan said, it's all in the dirt, or lack thereof near to London........

[BCrosby]

Are either of the following statements true?

The rise in the popularity of golf in Scotland and Ireland was primarily a working class phenomenon.

The rise in the popularity of golf in England and the US was primarily an upper class phenomenon.

Bob

[john_stiles]

Today I received a first edition of the Golf Course by Cornish and Whitten, to fit with my later editions,  and was glancing through the book.

In Chapter 2......page 28....

"It had first spread to England, where a band of Scots played over a seven hole course at Blackheath in 1608. By 1758 Molesey Hurst at Hampton was played regularly by the actor David Garrick and was praised as a "very good" golfing ground by a party of his Scottish friends. Another early formal layout was Old Manchester on Kersal Moor, opened around 1818."

So there you have it....the Scots were among the first golf course raters.

Chapter 2 later mentions '17' courses in Scotland by 1857 and mentions the gutta percha (circa 1848) price was one shilling and was durable while the old featherie was four shillings.

[Jack_Marr]

Are either of the following statements true?

The rise in the popularity of golf in Scotland and Ireland was primarily a working class phenomenon.

The rise in the popularity of golf in England and the US was primarily an upper class phenomenon.

Bob

Bob, it depends which rise in popularity you mean. I think many of the golf courses in Ireland were built to facilitate British soldiers stationed here. I doubt many of the Irish played at all at this time.  They weren't even allowed to own land unless they turned to protestantism.

[john_stiles]

Bob,

Golf Course mentions Scottish soldiers and engineers spreading the game to Hong Kong and South Africa.  Origins of Pau go back to Scottish engineers convalescing  near the Pyrenees.

The military 'officers' were not of the working class but I am not sure if all the references to Scottish soldiers were the officers or if  Private Smith was playing.  I suspect it was the officers spreading the game of golf.

Military officers were primarily of the upper class and not privates who worked their way up.

So,  in spreading the game around the empire,  I would imagine that any rise of the golf was begun and spread at all times by the upper class.  

The upper class had the time, money, and could travel and spread the game to the others (probably the upper class) that they would meet in their travels.

[T_MacWood]

Rich
I don't know what your source might be, but mine is Robert Price who has made a thorough study of Scotish golf courses. According to his research in 1750 (give or take a year) there were 3 golf courses in Scotland--Leith, Edinburgh and St. Andrews. As he points out in his book there has always been a larger number of clubs, but those clubs often shared the same golf course.

17 golf courses in 1850, expanded steadily to 84 by 1890, then the explosion in the 1890's, from 84 to 195.

[Adam_F_Collins]

What's the name of Price's book, Tom?

[T_MacWood]

Scotland's Golf Courses

[Adam_F_Collins]

Thanks Tom. Who were some of the earliest architects? Who was working in the 18th century?

[T_MacWood]

Adam
I'm not aware of any architects in the 18th C. The first architects were in the late 19th C. -- mostly professionals like Old Tom Morris, Tom Dunn, Willie Dunn and Willie Park. In England Dr. Laidlaw Purves laid out Sandwich, I believe he was also involved at Wimbeldon.

[ForkaB]

Tom

My main source is "A swing through time: Golf in Scotland 1457-1743" by Oliver Geddes.  My quick glance through it noted golf being played before 1753 in:

Perth
St. Andrews
Leith
Banff
Cullen
Stirling
Humbie
Tyninghame
Seton Palace
Aberdeen
Dornoch
Kirkwall
Glasgow
Montrose
Arbroath
Bruntsfield
Musselburgh

Not mentioned in the book is one of my clubs, Burntisland, where golf has been played since 1688 (the club is only 207 years old...).

I have the utmost respect for Price as a geologist, but I don't think that history is his forte.

[T_MacWood]

Price's numbers reflect when a club first orgainzed and created a formal golf course. I suspect Geddes was able to determine that there were gentleman with balls and clubs beating it around in the dunes as early as the 1750's.

What is interesting Price and Geddes identify bascially the same places. They may have been playing golf in all these pockets as early as 1753, but one hundred years later they were still playing it in the same relatively few places -- the game wasn't that popular. Which is the point.

Price does list Bruntsland (1797), I'm not sure how Geddes missed that one.

[Paul_Daley]

Lost in the mist of antiquity, it seems that most have forgotten that the first designer was Alan Robertson, who laid out 9-10 holes at Carnoustie and worked on the Old Course. While it is true that as an industry, golf-course architecture didn't get fully organised until the late 1800s, Roberston, as befitting the game's greatest player, was making his design mark in the 1840s.



   

[ForkaB]

Tom

Geddes wasn't making lists, just writing about how golf was in the early days.  I think you (and Price) are wrong to assume that proper courses existed only when formal clubs were established.  Geddes work (which mostly quotes primary sources) indicates no qualitative difference between the golf which was played in the early days at Leith and the golf that was played at the same time (say) at Arbroath.  To assume otherwise is to play fast and loose with the facts.

[T_MacWood]

"To assume otherwise is to play fast and loose with the facts."

That seems a bit strong...even for a habitual contrarian. I'm fairly well versed in golf history, and I wouldn't characterize Price's work as playing fast and loose with the facts. I'm certain Geddes' book is fascinating, but I'm not sure what bearing it has upon this thread which is related to formalized golf courses and golf architecture. Price's book is focused upon golf courses, not a handful of my relatives with their sheep beating a ball around the dunes in 1700. And anyway Price's golf courses for the most part match Geddes findings of a century earlier...they appear to support one another...and the idea that the game was not all that popular in Scotland in the 1850's (and 1700's for that matter)...the game took off and golf course development took off in the 1890's...I hope that's not too fast and loose for you.

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