Cuscowilla Greens - really that tough?

[kgrace]

The greens at Cuscowilla seemed to give us all some trouble this weekend, but were they really that tough?  They were very quick, but certainly not unfair.  Any idea what the green speeds were this past weekend?  The greens seemed to be very receptive to any decent shot - this certainly wouldn't be the case if they were firmer and dryer.  Not reading enough break seemed to be biggest problem I saw on the greens, which seemed to be directly related to speed.    

Thanks to Bill for organizing a great event.  I had a blast at my first GCA outing.

Kevin  

[Brent Hutto]

None of the guys I played with were getting the ball in a favorable position realtive to the hole, even though the greens were pretty receptive. A big part of that was due to how often the holes were near a rolled-off edge of a green. An additional factor was our unfamiliarity with the course, especially on Saturday which was the tougher of the two day position-wise.

I agree that the greens were not scary-fast. I don't spin the ball particularly much on short-game shots and yet it was checking up enough to be quite safe for playing pretty aggressive lines on pitch and chip shots. Also, there wasn't too much of that scary ball creep where it looks like it is stopped just past the hole but then eases on past for an extra three or four feet. Generally the balls that got away were just plain old not slowing down as they passed the hole due to major slopes not that far from the hole.

I tended to read enough break but then not hit the ball hard enough to get it as high as I needed to let it take that big-breaking line. But that's a common problem in my putting, I just get chicken if the greens are even moderately quick for their amount of contour. I noticed that our caddie on Sunday was quick to tell me "go ahead and be firm" on a lot of putt rather than advising me to play more break. So my theory is the slopes had everyone a little tentative and made the speed seem greater than it really was.

[blasbe1]

I ended up playing the course 4 times (twice before the GCA matches) and by Sunday, I noticed my lag putting got much better.  It was plain bad for the first two rounds.  I also realized that I made a lot more 4-5 footers by playing the ball firmly with less break than dying it in the hole.  Both these observations lead me to conclude that the greens are quite fair and do not have too much break relative to their size.  In fact, overall I would say my biggest problem was often due to not figuring out if a putt was uphill or downhill.  Even with a good caddie I often saw the opposite and couldn't get myself to hit it hard or soft enough.

That being said, there was one pin on Sunday that was a bit severe and I wonder if anyone had a similar experience in their games?  

On 15 I played a shot with a 9 iron from about 125 and landed the ball a yard short of pin high and 10 feet to the right.  It checked up immediately and I thought I would have a pin high ten footer.  My ball proceeded to release backwards (I don't spin nine irons that much) and then caught a ridge and rolled all the way off the front of the green, leaving me a good 60 feet below the hole.  

In comparison, Ken Fields' pitch released about 15-20 ft passed the pin and we all thought it would roll back down the ridge behind the hole to within a few feet.  It didn't, and Mike barely breathed on the next one and hit it a could 15 ft passed the pin.  

So I was short just of the pin and rolled off the green, Ken was passed the pin and was in jail, perhaps we both missed hitting perfect shots by inches but that pin seemed inaccessable to most.  Where should we have hit it on 15?    

[Brent Hutto]

Jason,

Three of us either missed short of the left side of the green or landed on the false front and rolled back. So we were all three either chipping or putting from right below the hole up the hill from the fringe. IIRC, none of us got the ball to the hole from down there. In retrospect, from somewhere just below the hole all the way down to the front of the green is a strong slope but around the hole it flattens out subtly so that once you get to the hole (or above it) it's not as sloped as it looks.

I'd say the ideal shot for a professional-level player would be to approach that hole from as far left as practical and then either hit a ball with not too much spin almost all the way to the hole. An interesting alternative would be to land a runner well below the hole but nobody much plays that shot nowadays. Overall, below the hole is still best you just have to be able to read that slope which is strongly uphill until it gets to the hole and then a little quicker right around the hole.

Both the right side (Saturday) and left side (Sunday) of that green seem to reward not spinning the ball with the approach shot. There's also that little depression running up the center of the green from the front to make chipping or putting from front-right to way left or vice versa quite tough.

According to the green diagram in the yardage book there is a little rise in the back left corner of the green. It sounds like you were hitting your approach from the center or right of the fairway so that your spin back brought you into that trough sticking six yards into the front center of the green. Farther left would probably have given you a 20-30 foot birdie putt straighter uphill even with the spin. If Ken came from the right and/or hit a righty draw then he probably ended up on that back-left raised corner. Honestly, I didn't notice it there when playing the hole but only saw it later in the yardage book. If he got either on that rise or at the back of the green putting around it there's no wonder the putt was just too slick. That little hump probably also explained why my group all came up short from below the hole and then had left-to-right putts for par (I think two of the three of us made it).

I don't particularly like that hole, the trees in the pond make it sort of ugly off the tee. But it is one of if not the coolest greens on the course. Looks pretty innocuous from the fairway but nobody seems to make putts on it. BTW, if you were playing the back tees and hitting 9-iron into that green then you da man.

[blasbe1]

BTW, if you were playing the back tees and hitting 9-iron into that green then you da man.

In the interests of full disclosure, we played the middle tees on Sun. and I played two shots from the hazard to the right under the tree canopy so my 9-iron was my fourth shot.  

[Joe Perches]

I played two shots from the hazard to the right under the tree canopy so my 9-iron was my fourth shot.  

And it was a fine shot Jason that just went unrewarded.  That green was actually very soft that Sunday and the facing wind was too likely to uplift the ball even higher.  I hit what I thought was a very nice right to left 4 wood (anybody else there still playing persimmon?) into the middle right of that green and had the ball check back to the same catch area below the green as Jason.

I'm still unsure what the correct play is on that hole given that pin position.

Tom Huckaby had some discussion after the first round about how to play it properly, above the hole on just about any pin seems wrong, flyers into the green are going to check back.  Left or right of the pin isn't very good either.  It's likely for best score that you need extremely precise distance control on a running approach.  Leaving it between you and the hole seems right.

[Brian_Gracely]

Brother,

Having played fairly well both days, I'm not sure you got to see enough of the greens...and their surroundings.  I, on the other hand, am planning to write a book on all the places not to land your approaches on/around those greens.  

I'm not sure if the Cuscowilla folks did it on purpose or not, but it seemed like we had polar opposite pin positions from Saturday to Sunday (front to back, left to right) which was sort of nice as you got to experience different parts of the greens.

In general, I saw better scores from those that could lag putt and made most of their 5-6 footers.  I didn't see alot of people hitting chip shots stiff and I also saw very few 6" tap-ins.

 

[Brian_Gracely]

Anyone know why the plastic ring was so pronounced around all the greens?  Is that due to poor installation, reaction to recent weather (ie. excessive water or cold weather pushing it up, etc.) or some type of maintenance/mowing issue?  I saw balls stop on it, get bumped up on running chips, and act as a trampoline for a long approach that landed directly on it.

[Jason Mandel]

Brian,

the reason i heard was it was to keep the bermuda grass from growing onto the greens.  not sure if that is correct or not but thats what i had heard.

jason

[John_Cullum]

I find most of Cuscowilla's greens to be extreme. It was very difficult for me to judge how the ball would react when it began to lose pace, and when it would begin to lose pace. It's easy to be 4' away after a 25' putt.

That said, I noticed I was developing a better feel for them come back 9 on Sunday. If I could have figured that out on friday afternoon, I may have scored better over the weekend.

It seems to me there is no way to set the course up to play less than difficult. It is just the degree of difficulty obtained.

It doesn't help that lag putting is probably the weakest part of my game.

[JakaB]

Brian,

I thought it was to keep the bent from creeping into the bermuda....I have a confession to make...I have openly complained about bent creep from both tees and greens at clubs that I frequently play...I have questioned the cost of repairing bent creep by resodding fringes and tee surrounds...but as God is my witness....I would prefer to take home a case of bent creep in my crotch before I would want to have to chip or putt over, around or through those little green barriers on any regular basis.   Of all the plastic, or wooden, or aluminum artificial fixtures I have ever seen on a golf course... the consistant annoyance of the green ring tops everything...

I know this is a common feature on most if not all modern courses but why it has not been fixed in this instance is a matter that should be looked into.....the sad truth is that the fix looks to be near impossible.   Our only hope is that this item was somewhat of a test product and has since been replaced by less intrusive technology...

[kgrace]

Just short of the green was the best way to go at the mid-left pin.  Hit the pitch and run about 10 feet past the hole and let it horseshoe back to the flag for a 3ft putt.  

[A.G._Crockett]

The plastic ring is to prevent bermuda from intruding onto the green, not the other way around.

I'm surprised that it was a problem; when I played at Cuscowilla last spring, we never had a single shot influenced by it.  In truth, it is NOT a fixture at most courses; I've only seen a couple that have the rings in the SE.  They certainly are not commonplace, and where there ARE rings, they'd have to be set low or mowing the greens, even by hand, would be much more difficult.

[Mike_Young]

The plastic ring is a system thst either hold a weed eater blade or has a wick type of instrument that is placed in a slot and moved around the green to keep bermuda encroachment out.  I agree that it sometime comes into play but overall it seems to be a good solution.  Don't mistake it for a plastic liner around the green cavity.
Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, I've heard another reason for the ring is to keep the greens mowing crews from shrinking the greens!

[Mike_Young]

Bill,
Thats a good idea.
Mike

[JakaB]

I am glad to hear it is not the same thing as the plastic liner around a green cavity.....I hate the ring so much that I believe it would be enough to keep the course out of the Golf Digest top 100 just based on the conditioning score alone.   It has to be worth at least a 5 point penalty...talk about windmills and clown faces now we have weed eater slots to chip over...It is very, very much in play in at least 65% of the holes on every round...

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