[mark chalfant]

If you only had a morning in Toronto, which course might
prove more fun to play ? I believe Scarboro is by Tillinghast
and Lookout by Travis. Do both courses faeture rolling land
with ravines. Are the putting surfaces original (unaltered)
on these two courses? Thanks very much.

[Matthew MacKay]

I know you're looking for a definitive answer but you can't go wrong with either.  You should note that while Scarboro is in the heart of Toronto, Lookout Point is sort of in the middle of nowhere, at least an hour from Toronto.  Don't know if this would affect your plans at all.
With the multitude of Thompson courses around Toronto, I find both courses to be a refreshing change.  
Scarboro is set in the Highland Creek ravine and although you are near some the worst areas in Toronto you would never know it.  It is Tillinghast's only design in Canada and from what I've looked up, the routing has not changed much at all.  The greens are more sloping than undulating, not sure if they've been redone over the years.  I walked the course just last week and though I had played it before I was more impressed second time out.  Scarboro has some really good golf holes and great variety in it's par 3's and 4's.  One of it's defining features would be it's skyline greens and bunkering behind greens.  The overall bunkering is weak in spots and seems out of scale but some of it is very good.
Lookout Point is set on the edge of the Niagara Peninsula, in fact the first tee has views of Niagara Falls.  The routing is of note in that the first and tenth holes drop you in the valley and the subsequent holes gradually work back up.  It is a Travis design (his other Canadian design being Cherry Hills near Fort Erie) although the routing has been altered slightly over the years to accomodate a driving range.  Most of the greens must be originals because they have that beautiful rumpled look to them that only time can create.  Some great natural bumps and hollows litter the course as well creating perception problems and preferred lines.
As mentioned Mark, either course is well worth seeking out.  I'd go with which one is more convenient and put the other on a 'to do' list.  

[Robert Thompson]

Mark: Gosh, both Scaboro and Lookout are pretty neat-- throwbacks to another era of golf.
A group (including Ian Andrew, Ben Cowan-Dewar and Jeff Mingay) played Scarboro yesterday. We've all played it before and came away impressed, though the bunkers could use an overhaul. It is wonderful quirky golf, with three of the best short fours you'll ever see.
Check out the 19th hole as well -- impossible, though only 122 yards long.
As for Lookout, it is indeed a Travis layout and Ian Andrew has done much of the restoration work there in recent years. Another great experience, though, as Matt said, no where near Toronto.

Robert

[Jeff_Mingay]

I hadn't played Scarboro in about three years, and came away extremely impressed by the course yesterday. With some bunker and tree work, it could be very, very good in my opinion. The club has a fascinating legacy to draw from, with Scarboro being Tillinghast's lone design effort in Canada.

There's a nice diversity of holes, some long, some short, some medium length. So, it doesn't feel like an overall slog, even for a hack like me!

Outstanding holes include par 3s at two (!!) and eleven. Par 4s at three (!), five (!), and eighteen (where you drive over busy Scarborough Golf Club Road!). One, six, and ten (!) are formidable par 5s. And the excellent short par 4s (in the 300 yard range) that Robert mentions are at seven (!) and fifteen (!!).

With some work, the 280 yard par 4 sixteenth could be pretty good too.

The 19th hole is fun, too, with the beautiful Scarboro clubhouse as a backdrop. (Even though it's impossible to hold its severely sloped green!)

Scarboro's one of Canada's most under-rated golf courses, I'd say.  

[ian]

Mark,

Sorry about the delay, but I would say both are worth playing for all the quirk, and especially for a large collection of interesting short holes.

Here is a bit of a tour of Lookout Point. It has a Biaritz green, 3 fall away greens, 3 greens less than 3000 sq.ft. (that have not shrunk). The course remains my favourite Travis so far, partially because of the severity of the site, and how well it was routed.


The is the opening shot to a 430 yard par four that is 120 feet downhill, with Niagara Falls in the background



The typical Travis mounds found between many holes



The 140 yard 5th hole, with its 2800 sq.ft. green and 6 foot deep bunkers on either side. The hollow in front did turn out to be a bunker, but that was discovered long after the bunker restoration/renovation was done.



This massive 20% cross-fall affects the 7th from second shot through to the third. This is taken from 100 yards out.



This is the second shot into the extremely difficult 435 uphill par four 14th. The mounds in the centre are origional, but for some reason they have not grown the fescue up in the last 7 years. Too bad because it looked much more dramatic.



This mound complex is 100 yards off the tee and was placed as a directional guide. These were not bunkers (that's why 5 was assumed to be the same till proof finally arrived).

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

How long now was it that we played Lookout? It's been a few years, eh...

I need to get back again, for another look.

[ian]

Jeff,

5 years.....I think.


Some images of Scarborough to go along with the discussion.

The 230 yard 2nd, called "Too Soon", a wonderful downhill par three.



The wonderful 285 yard 7th, simply one of the best short fours I have played



Finally the 110 yard short par three 11th.

[mark chalfant]

Matt, Robert, Jeff, and Ian thanks so much for all your help on
these two beauties. The terrain at Lookout Point reminds me a
bit of Travis hilly but great CC of Troy (1927). The greens at
Troy are remarkable for their  intricate contours.

Ian, thanks for lovely photos of both places, and telling us about the three Lookout greens designed to be under 3,000 square feet each !

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