The Fourteenth at Cuscowilla

[Brent Hutto]

3.  The only hole I really didn't like was the par 5 14th.  I'm sure I'll be torn a new one here for criticizing Coore/Crenshaw here, but that is my least favorite of all Coore/Crenshaw holes I have played.  Ambiguous tee-shot, ambiguous layup, crazy green (at least Saturday's pin).  The spectacle-looking bunkers you hit over on your second are out of character compared to the bunkers on the rest of the course.  Cory L. thought that 14 may have served as a connector type hole to link 10-13 up with 15-18, which seems like a likely possibility.  The only problem I have with this is that 14 is one of only 2 par 5s on the course, and to be confined with this requirement limited the potential of this hole from the start.  IMHO <asbestos suit on>.

Well I'm not capable of tearing anyone a new one and wouldn't want to if I could. That said, I really liked the fourteenth hole at Cuscowilla. I'm hoping to see further discussion of it so I started a new topic. I want to begin by asking Brad to expand on a couple of his comments.

What does "ambiguous" denote in your assessment of the tee shot and layup? Does it in part mean "semi-blind"? Is it something that would become less so after playing those shots a half-dozen times? Or do you mean there are risks with no clearly offered reward?

Let me ask a tangentially related question. In general what is your opinion of reverse-cambered holes built around a curved hillside? Because (whether it was a "connector" forced on the routers or whatever) fundamentally that's what the hole is, no? There's that big hill bulging into the line between the tee and the green and so the ball needs to work its way from left to right, possibly on the tee shot and more importantly on the second and/or third shots (especially with the bunkering below greenside on the front left) but the slopes are all right to left. That's what makes the hole hard for me, eventually I've got to get over those spectacle bunkers hitting lefty with the ball below my feet and my landing area sloping hard away from me. And all the junk along the top of the ridge make missing right a bad miss.

There's a short but not drivable Par 4 at my home course that's built around an bulge from the left that's a smaller scale of reverse-camber dogleg. I think it's a fun hole but some people don't like it. Basically I love reverse-cambered holes like that although when they are extreme they become almost unplayable for me if the slope is right to left. I also like Par 5 holes that challenge the player on every layup. I think on the fourteenth at Cuscowilla it's cool how how the very longest drives can be risky (the fairway narrows with a swampy hazard) and the very same physical feature is used to make the layup second shot for the shortest hitters choose between a narrow target versus a super-short layup versus being sure you can hit the layup 170 yards or so. The spectacle bunkers provide a blind second shot to a sloping landing zone for the long hitters and an equally blind third shot to a sloping landing zone plus a medium-long uphill carry for us shorties. And then the green and front left bunker are just perfect IMO for a hole that even the bombers are going to be playing in three shots.

So that's my contribution to continuing the discussion of this "Controversial" hole (said in my best fake TV announcer voice). Maybe I just like the hole because it's so hard I can really lower my expectations. Brad, I suspect that a player at your level may find it doubly confounding because you look for the Par 5's as chances to pick up a stroke and that's awfully hard to do on this hole. Do you feel that the fourteenth takes away length as a weapon from the longer hitter? Is it akin to a long Par 4 where they pinch the fairway in to nothing at about 260 yards and make you hit an iron off the tee and then play a 200+ yard approach?

P.S. It is not my intention to pick an argument with Brad but rather to illuminate the challenges this hole presents to his particular strengths and expectations. I honestly can only vaguely imagine the sorts of risk/reward weights that apply to player who hit the ball longer, higher, and straighter than average. So I ask questions.

[Brent Hutto]

Let me add one other thought. For those of us who played at Athens CC on Friday, think about the fourteenth at Cuscowilla and the eleventh (we played it as the second) at Athens.

Isn't the latter to a certain extent a two-shot version of the former? Both of them play awkwardly around a hillside jutting out from the right and both tee shots are over easily-carried water hazards whose far bank tends to obscure a right-to-left sloping fairway which works toward a lateral hazard on the left.

I think hitting an iron shot to the eleventh green at Athens is more challenging than hitting a wedge shot to the fourteenth at Cuscowilla. Plus #11 at Athens doesn't have fake-looking spectacle bunkers ruining the appearance of the hole so it's got that going for it...

[BCrosby]

Brent -

I agree with your analysis of the 11th at the ACC. A terrific long par 4 that gets better the more you play it. BTW, Ross designed it to have no bunkers. The bunker in the ridge to the left of the green was installed by a greens chairman in the late '50's to catch balls that would otherwise roll down into the creek on the left.

As to the 14th at Cuscowilla, after having played it fifteen or so times, I still don't know where to hit the second shot. Or, rather, there doesn't seem to be an optimal place to hit the second shot. All of the options, for one reason or another, seem to leave very difficult third shots to the green.

It's a maddening hole. But having said that, I do love the course.

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

I'd have to agree with Brad; the fourteenth is my least favorite hole on the course, based on two trips to date.  I just think the tee shot downhill past the pond is awkward, and the hole overall is very difficult.

However, I do know a couple of members who play the course regularly and think it's an excellent hole, so maybe I'm wrong.

[JakaB]

I thought the 14th was a simple little hole if you played your second shot to the left side of the fairway....you just then have an uphill shot of 100-130yds over a bunker (one of only two or three times a greenside bunker is even close to being in play) to a green that slopes back to front from this angle.  It just might be my favorite hole on the course if not for the fact that from the up tees anyone 30yds longer than Huck could reach the blind gunch...

Now if you want to talk about a terrible hole...talk about the 18th....

[blasbe1]

14 is a bear but I like it a lot.  I struggled no matter where I hit my drive, although twice I hit it about 310 got a kick right to left off the hill and was left with a bit over 300 to the green.  First time I sculled a fairway wood off a slightly down hill lie and next time block-fatted a long iron into the top right bunker on the ridge.

Twice I blocked tee shots but had a great angle, actually to the right of the big oak and left of the junk to the right of the ridge.  Both times the shot was from a hook lie and both times I hit long irons barely clearing the middle ridge bunker.  That carry is much longer than it looks.

All that means that even if you hit a great drive the hole is visually and physically demanding and requires a very good to great second shot.  BTW, after the first time I played the hole I realized that there is a ton of room left once you cross the hill, however, I still couldn't bring myself to aim left for fear of a snap hook off of the hook lies.

Next time I play the hole it's driver, fairway wood no matter where I am off the tee so long as I can get a club on the ball.  I think the only way to successfully play the hole is to challenge the left side with a wood on your second shot.

14 reminded me a lot of 15 at the Plantation Course, but in reverse.  15 at the Plantation requires a cut drive and a hooked second up a bill hill.  If you don't carry the second over the hill you roll all the way back down and have  a long blind third.  Of course the tour bombers drive it to the bottom of that hill and go at the green in two.  I don't think I made better than 6 on that hole in about 5 attempts and I thought it was a great hole.    
       

[A.G._Crockett]

Now if you want to talk about a terrible hole...talk about the 18th....

Why?

[Brent Hutto]

Jason,

One could probably learn a lot about that hole if one could sit around and watch people play it over time, no?

[Brad Swanson]

My take is that it is one of the most bland holes on the course, with a ridiculous green (at least for Saturday's pin).  My biggest gripe is with the front pin.  Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if the hole wasn't 630 yds long, but, lets face it, if the better golfer play a quality tee shot and 2nd shot, they are faced with a pitch to a pin that rolls nearly everything off of the front of the green except a run in shot.

In full disclosure I got up and down for par on both days (from the left front trap on Sunday and from the right fringe on Saturday, which by blind luck turned-out to be a good place to miss to that pin).

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Brent Hutto]

1) A well-sliced tee shot into the trees, bounces back into the fairway leaving just under 300 yards to the green.

2) A topped 5-wood rolls over the hill and continues for another 100 yards leaving 160 yards to the flag.

3) A well-struck hybrid rolls to the back of the green.

4) Just touch the putt to get it going down the chute toward the hole.

5) Tap in for a five.

[A.G._Crockett]

1) A well-sliced tee shot into the trees, bounces back into the fairway leaving just under 300 yards to the green.

2) A topped 5-wood rolls over the hill and continues for another 100 yards leaving 160 yards to the flag.

3) A well-struck hybrid rolls to the back of the green.

4) Just touch the putt to get it going down the chute toward the hole.

5) Tap in for a five.

Now, THAT is a hole with options!

[Brent Hutto]

I agree that Saturday's hole location on 14 was dodgy (and that wasn't the only such pin position on the course that day). But I thought when more reasonably set up on Sunday it was a hole where three good shots were sufficient to make par a simple matter and even birdie a possibility with a good putt. I can't remember where Ralph in our group put his third shot but he also got up and down for par but I think it may have been somewhere a ways short of the green to the right.

[blasbe1]

Jason,

One could probably learn a lot about that hole if one could sit around and watch people play it over time, no?

True indeed.  

[Brent Hutto]

Now, THAT is a hole with options!

Yes, in retrospect I see it could have just as easily been played with a good drive, a sliced hybrid off a tree and then a well-struck 5-wood from 175...

RJ Daley really hit a good drive on Sunday, perhaps 260 yards or so in the middle of the fairway. He ended up with a tap-in for five as well. So it appears from our group's experience that eighteen is a classic "easy bogey, tough par" half-shot hole.

The one option that the eighteenth at Cuscowilla apparently does not offer is that of being arrived at in less than 4.5 hours. In an otherwise completely marvelous and fulfilling trip the slow irritation was the ridiculously slow pace of play.

[blasbe1]

It's a very difficult course and requires more putts than most others so I'd say walking should be done by four in about 4hr15min.  We played way too slow on Sat. (5hr15min).

I walked with a caddie as a single on Wednesday in 3 hours, usually that would be 2 hrs. 30 minutes on most courses.

[Jason Mandel]

The trip was great and I will have much more to say later about it.  But Dave, all you need to know is the starter told us that Saturday's round was the longest,slowest round he had seen since Master's week, when they were packed to the brim on the course.  He assured us this would not happen again on Sunday:)  

[blasbe1]

RJ Daley really hit a good drive on Sunday, perhaps 260 yards or so in the middle of the fairway. He ended up with a tap-in for five as well. So it appears from our group's experience that eighteen is a classic "easy bogey, tough par" half-shot hole.
quote]

On Sun. I was one down going into 18 and hit a good drive that didn't draw into the right rough just through the fairway.  I was left with 200 to the green and hit my 215-220 club to about 40 feet and made a 3 footer for par to halve the match.   No matter what side of that par you're on, it's a great finishing hole for match play, period!    

[Brent Hutto]

Brent:  let me guess...glacial Tour-inspired pre-shot routines...constant searches for exact distances and requisite fairway pacing to determine 173 vs. 171....reading putts from every angle...guys playing out holes for medal score even when they've lost the hole.....we're all such hypocrites!  

Something like that. I was in the final group both days (and it was a fivesome both days). On Saturday our group finished about 10 minutes out of position in 5 hours, 20 minutes. On Sunday we kept up with the group ahead through the 17th hole (but we ended up a couple minutes out of position on 18) and our time was about 4:45-4:50. So basically the foursomes were playing in just over 5 hours the first day and just under 5 hours on the day we were warned to play faster.

I shouldn't tell tales out of school but there was at least one very elaborate putting routine in the group ahead of us, including the dreaded plumb bob. At one point in the festivities the careful putter missed about a 4-footer for par, marked the ball and read his 2-foot comeback putt from several different angles. The Mayor, playing in my group, yelled something in the direction of the green which included the phrase "Why don't you plumb-bob the son-of-a-bitch too!" which captured the mood of the moment perfectly. I must say, though, that on the back nine that group picked up their pace noticably and my fivesome had to struggle to keep up from that point on.

I think it was the greens that induced the slow play. I did not notice any untoward pacing and practice swings on the tees or fairways. The greens were puzzling and especially on Saturday the pins were placed right on the rolled-off edges on several holes. If in fact people were putting out after the hole was won or conceded (our fivesome could not afford that luxury) it's easy to see how the minutes could add up quickly.

[Brent Hutto]

On Sun. I was one down going into 18 and hit a good drive that didn't draw into the right rough just through the fairway.  I was left with 200 to the green and hit my 215-220 club to about 40 feet and made a 3 footer for par to halve the match.   No matter what side of that par you're on, it's a great finishing hole for match play, period!    

Absolutely. There are many half-shot holes at Cuscowilla and they mostly seem to be on the "plus a half" side. In fact some might argue that #14 is a Par 5-1/2. I don't think the course was particularly designed with match play in mind but that's how it worked out IMO.

In my experience, match play often comes down to a putting contest in the end (and in that sense is like stroke play) and, with my apologies to the "putts should counts as half a stroke" crowd, putting with a match on the line on Cuscowilla's greens is FUN. I personally gagged on a match-ending 2-putt on the seventeenth hole Saturday but fortunately my partner put the hammer down on eighteen and rendered it just another 3-putt in the final analysis.

[Michael Whitaker]

Dave,

You hit the nail on the head! There were reports of at least one GCA'er putting out for about a 14 on one hole!

To be fair to the masses, however... the greens were scary fast.  Our caddie told us he had never seen the greens at that speed, and he thought several of the pin positions on Sat and Sun were meant to teach the GCA crowd a thing or two.

[Brent Hutto]

To be fair to the masses, however... the greens were scary fast.  Our caddie told us he had never seen the greens at that speed, and he thought several of the pin positions on Sat and Sun were meant to teach the GCA crowd a thing or two.

Well, they gave the groups waiting behind a chance to learn patience...

[Pete Lavallee]

I really loved the 14th hole, and although it's difficult and may need to be played several times to formulate a strategy I don't think it's unfair. When I was chipping from just short of the green on Sat. to save my par I knew that any ball that landed short of the pin would roll back to my feet; should the architects be held responsible if the player clearly sees the risk and can't execute the shot? The tee shot may be very awkward for a higher handicap left hander that slices (what say yee Brett), but there is plenty of room to play away from the water on to the right and let the slope feed the ball back to the center. The real difficulty seems to be that there is no level place to postion the tee shot and everyone who challanges the fairway bunkers must do so from a hanging lie. The option of laying up just short of the fairay bunkers leaves only 190 to the green, so even a modest hitter can get in range to get up and down from short of the green. Did anyone else notice that the two fairway bunkers were the only ones on the course that weren't red?

[Brent Hutto]

The tee shot may be very awkward for a higher handicap left hander that slices (what say yee Brett), but there is plenty of room to play away from the water on to the right and let the slope feed the ball back to the center.

No, not really a problem at least from the 6,400 yard tees. There's all that hillside to the right if I'm feeling chicken and the only concern would be if the hole were playing right into the wind when the water comes into play. I aimed at that little building or house just to the right of the big tree, if I pulled it the hillside would send it back left and as long as I didn't hit a total weakass banana ball I'd still clear the water and roll on down a good ways. In honesty my "slices" are generally push-fades so as long as I can aim right without fear of pulling one into the woods or native grass I'm OK on a hole with severe trouble way over to the left like the fourteenth.

The real difficulty seems to be that there is no level place to postion the tee shot and everyone who challanges the fairway bunkers must do so from a hanging lie. The option of laying up just short of the fairay bunkers leaves only 190 to the green, so even a modest hitter can get in range to get up and down from short of the green.

I agree with both points with one caveat. The way that fairway pinches in from the left and the native grass lines the right at about 220-240 yards from the green requires some certainty that you're going to hit your layup club the full distance. But once you get past that little narrow neck there's a generous landing area. It's somewhat unnatural for most people to plan a strategy of laying up short of the green in three on a Par 5 but the darned thing is 600 yards uphill. It's equivalent to a 400+ yard Par 4 which would seem like a natural layup situation if there's enough trouble around.

Did anyone else notice that the two fairway bunkers were the only ones on the course that weren't red?

Now that you mention it, that's right. I guess there was something other than clay directly under those bunkers.

[Pete Buczkowski]

This hole is one of the most mentally challenging ones I've every experienced.  This is heightened by its placement in the round - middle of the back nine - a place where many mid to high handicappers lose their focus and give up strokes.  You are not yet prepared for the "home stretch" and that can lead to BIG numbers on this hole.

Another point of note is that Ran makes absolutely no mention of it in his profile...

[blasbe1]

Did anyone else notice that the two fairway bunkers were the only ones on the course that weren't red?

Pete,

Great observation, we are so used to seeing non-red that it didn't even register to me.  

I'm actually going back this weekend so I will inquire and post what I learn.  

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