[Mark_Rowlinson]

A common cry on GCA is for a chainsaw to take out those trees planted since the original construction of a course which remove some of the designed strategic options.  Are there any early classics which used trees, woodland or even forest strategically?  I'm probably thinking of before the First World War, certainly before 1930 when tree planting became almost obligatory on previously barren sites.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Judging by the fact that nobody has replied, maybe there aren't any.

[Marc Haring]

Mark.

I’m delving into the recesses of my brain here but I’m sure St Georges Hill (coincidentally) comes into that category. I think I read on this site about Colt describing the process of woodland course construction and how several navvies with picks were preferable to ‘modern day’ powered equipment. I think it accompanied by a picture of the construction of SGH and was in a thread posting the rare writings of Colt. (Was it Sutton’s publication that included the written observations of many celebrated architects of the time?)  

Also New Zealand?

[Tom_Doak]

If you look at the diagrams in Wethered & Simpson's book, it is obvious that Tom Simpson liked the idea of using trees at the edges of clearings as strategic hazards -- for example, his diagrams of Chiberta-Biarritz.

It is less clear that he recognized the holes would get tougher and tighter as the trees grew.

Bernard von Limburger was another architect who used trees as primary hazards at Club Zur Vahr, Bremen.  Unfortunately he wasn't as good at drainage, at least on that course.

[wsmorrison]

Flynn used strategic trees in interesting ways at a number of courses.  Perhaps the best examples are found at Huntingdon Valley Country Club.  The 11th hole demonstrates a wonderful use of trees.

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

Expanding on Marc's comments.  Colt does write about courses that are made through tree clearing and he regards Simpson's New Zealand as the first.  Swinley would be the second.  I think that would also make NZGC the first in the world...I'm not aware of any elsewhere so early: pre 1910.

[T_MacWood]

It is my understanding that New Zealand was the first, designed by Mure Fergusson, and later redesigned by Simpson.

[John Goodman]

Mark, what about Royal Ashdown Forest?  It dates from the 1890's or maybe earlier, doesn't it?  I don't know how it was laid out (except that no bunkers were permitted), but it's hard to imagine at least a few of RAF's holes without tree lines contributing significantly to those holes' strategic qualities (say, 1, 7, 8, 12).          

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Thanks for the suggestion of New Zealand.  I've only been there once, loved it, but didn't have the chance of a photograph - wet and miserable.  There are several holes which have unusual bunkering and there is a great deal of heather.  For sure, you have to shape shots round or over trees on a number of holes if you find the wrong bit of the fairway.

I don't know how many trees at Royal Ashdown were there when it was created, but I'd have no hesitation in mentioning it in the same breath as St G's Hill or New Zealand.  It's a super course.  

What was Huntercombe like in 1901?

[Dan_Callahan]

Not sure what it was like when it opened in the 1920's, but today there are a number of holes at Yale where the combination of sloping fairways and dense trees dictate strategy (on 8 and 10, for example).

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I can think of a number of courses that at least in part fit the bill.
The Berkshire, some of the holes at Woodhall Spa,Blackmoor in Hampshire{one of my favourite never mentioned courses}St georges hill.
I suppose Woodhall Spa does noty really qualify as it really is a parklnad/heathland course, but some of the hole are certainly wooded!!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Michael,  

How many of those courses were wooded from the start?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

My guess would be all of them, as they appear to be carved out of the forest, especially The Berkshire courses.
another ones springs to mind in Sussex, but I cannot remember the name.
Awonderful course, off the beaten track, damn it I cannot believe I cannot remember the name..any idea Mark?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Mark,
I think it could be called Pulborough or something like that

[Paul_Turner]

Blackmoor and Berkshire were much more open, from what I've seen in old photos.

I've only seen old pics of the front 9 of Woodhall and it was open heath: which it is mainly now.

Also the club has an early aerial at Pulborough.  From my recollection, it was open heath with some funky looking bunker shapes.

SGH was seen as somewhat of a landmark, I believe, because of the huge amount of clearing involved.  

[Craig Disher]

Mark,
A woodland course makes me think of a course carved out of woods. Royal Ashdown Forest has woods but the open areas made me feel like they had always been there.

My image of a woodland course is Liphook in W Sussex - or Blairgowrie. Both feel like the holes were laid out following a team of woodsmen. Sad to say, I haven't seen W Sussex (Pulborough). Perhaps this year.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Craig,

Suprising as it may seem, Liphook was very open, barren heath when laid out.  There are photographs in the local pub.  

West Sussex - I don't have any old photos but the Morning Post in Sept 1930 described it:  The course is laid out over a heather moor, rising suddenly and surprisingly out of the meadow and marshland that is characteristic of Sussex.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Thank you Mark and Paul for your historic perspective.
I am just gald that somebody else has played Blackmoor, I think that is just one of those typical English "special" courses.
Very low profile, but a joy to play.

It is along time since I played both Blackmoor and West Sussex perhaps on my next trip back to the homeland, we can meet up and play.

I spent my college years in Eastbourne, playing at Royal Eastboune, Willingdon ans Eastbourne Downs, the latter of which was the best of the three, but a trip to Pulborough was alwayy a treat for, usually to play county matches

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Michael,

I'm not at all clued up on the courses between Rye and Hayling (apart from Worthing).  I'd love to know more about them.  Any information you can share would be great.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Mark, to be quite honest,Royal Eastboune and Willingdon would not be a great miss, but Eastboune Downs which sits high atop the downs, is a good golf course.
I cannot remember much about individual holes but remember the wind blowing all the time, as you can imagine sitting on top of the downs, and the green complexes being unusually interesting for a sussex course...unless I just 3 putted alot everytime I played there !!!

I also played alot in Norfolk, the Brancaster and Hunstanton links are obvious inclusions, but have you ventured to either Sheringham or Royal Cromer?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Yes, I know them both.  But we've strayed from the topic.  Perhaps we should continue our chat by E-mail.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Bernard von Limburger was another architect who used trees as primary hazards at Club Zur Vahr, Bremen.  Unfortunately he wasn't as good at drainage, at least on that course.

I spoke with the architect, who did the recent remodelling of zur Vahr. He said that the soil is primarily clay and "Anmoor", don't know the English term for that, but it's similar to moorland. In his opinion there was no technology in the 1960s to make that course drain well. So no fault on von Limburger from that side.

Ulrich

[Philip Gawith]

Mark - Huntercombe has a few pictures hanging in the clubhouse which suggest it was very open 100 years ago, not at all the heavily wooded course it is today.

[michael j fay]

Ross built a course in an arboretum at Jefferson-Lakeside in Richmond,VA. It is a sporty little course and he turned the course with the use of a number of lovely large oaks.

Unfortunately over the years tree planting committees and memorial trees have been added and have nearly returned Jefferson Lakeside to an arboretum.

This is a place in need of a Stihl.

[Dan Moore]

Cyrstal Downs 5, 6 and 7 all could be said to use trees strategically.

Langford and Moreau also used a few trees for strategic purposes, e.g. 13th at Lawsonia.  At Butterfield CC in Chicago the first hole has a large oak that needs to be carried or bypassed on the ground on the 1st hole and another set of oaks that need to be carried between the tee and green on the par 3 11th.  These oaks are located in a hollow between the green and tee maiking the carry a little less difficult.  

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