East Lake versus other Ross

[mark chalfant]

I would like to see East Lake some day but in some ways Im just as curious about Peachtree. For those who are familiar
with East Lake how does it compare with courses like
Aronimink, Plainfield ,Holston Hills,or Scioto in terms
of resistance to scoring, character, and the quality of
its green complexes. Thanks.

[Tommy Williamsen]

There is no question that East Lake is good..Yet, it wasn't blessed with the same quality terrain as Aronimink, Scioto. or Plainfield.  It accepts a run up shot and is hillier on the backside.  It just doesn't inspire like the ones you mentioned.  The best thing about East Lake is its history and its clubhouse which is one of the great clubhouses in the world.  Peachtree is on land similar AANC and is wonderful.  It was not in the best of shape a few years ago but from what I hear is in great shape now.

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm sure that as the Cuscowilla attendees straggle back to work and log in, that there will be more authoritative posts than this.

I believe that little of Ross's design other than the routing remains for reasons that Brad Klein explains in his book.  As good as the course is now, and it is great by any standard, it wasn't really restored what Ross did.

As to Peachtree, I can't imagine it EVER being in anything other than pristine condition, though I suppose that could have happened during the drought here in Atlanta a couple of summers ago.  A friend played there about three weeks ago, and was just awed, which is all you will ever hear from the fortunate few (VERY few!) who gain access to Peachtree.

[A.G._Crockett]

Dave,
For what it is worth, the players have almost uniformly loved East Lake since the Tour Championship first came to the course about 5 yrs. ago.  I know they are experts in not making waves, but I think their reactions to East Lake are beyond that.  The comments from the players this week were no exception, with only John Daly being even a bit critical.  Daly's only criticism was that there are only two par 5's.

Primarily, I think that the green contours at East Lake don't show up on TV.  Like everything else, they look much, much flatter than they are, and you don't really get a sense of how critical it is to hit the correct part of the green.  Remember that yesterday until Goosen birdied 16 that there had been NO birdies on 16, 17, or 18.  None of the three appear that difficult on TV.  

[BCrosby]

I have played both P'tree and EL many times over the years. Where to begin...

The easy one first. I am not a big fan of P'tree. Good course, usually in good shape, it gets little play, but does not deserve its ranking. The best hole is the 1st and things seem to go downhill from there, architecturally. It was one of RTJ's first big commissions and it has all the strengths and weaknesses of a classic RTJ design. Bobby Jones wanted RTJ to incorporate aspects of TOC at P'tree (a la ANGC). I'll be damned if I'ver ever been able to see them. I find several of the par 4's and par 5's repetitive. Some very good par 3's. I like 11 and 12.

A course whose ranking depends in large part on the exclusivity of the club, not on its architectural qualites.

EL. Original layout by Bendelow about 1912. Ross redesigned the layout about 1922. Original Ross course had three par 3's and three par5's on the front. George Cobb redid the course in 1960 in preparation for the '63 Ryder Cup. Rees redid the course again about '94 with the Tom Cousins purchase. It is by consensus now a Rees course on a Ross layout.

I don't have a good feel for what Cobb changed of Ross. But having played EL through the '80's, and having grown up on the Ross course in Athens, back then it had a much more Rossy feel. But back then the course was largely forgotten because of the disintegration of the membership. Conditoning suffered horribly during that period.

Notwithstaning the lack of conditioning, I miss the old course and do not like Rees's changes. He installed lots of fronting bunkers. He made 8 an uncomfortable, less interesting hole. (For Ross, it was a par 3. Cobb originally changed it to a par 4 in '60, as I understand it.) He converted one of the best par 4's in the city (the 10th) to a pedestrain par 5 for members. There are lots of other changes that can be discussed on request, few of which I understand.

Early on the notion was that Rees was doing a restoration. No one makes that claim now.

Ironically, EL now looks to me more like Bethpage Black than a Ross course.

Still, EL is fun to play. It's just the "what might have been" takes away from some of the pleasure. Especially if you knew the predecessor course well.

Bob

 

 

[BCrosby]

Remind me, if we ever play a round together, to have a very long day from the tee. Otherwise I worry you will insist that I sit out the hard holes.

By all means play EL if you ever get the chance. The clubhouse alone is worth the visit.

Bob  

[Derek_Duncan]

The bunkering at East Lake is all Rees Jones, and it wants for Donald Ross, something a little less curvy, a little more square or steep. I can't understand the completely fronting trench bunkers at 8 and 12 -- they are out of character with the land and the good players will never be in them. It especially makes no sense at 12 where the tees could be moved up to about 340-360 and played as a drivable downhill par-4 for the Championship, but not with that bunker closing off all ground avenues.

I can't be certain, but East Lakes seems to have been redesigned with a professional tournament in mind. The green contours are of the subtle or tilting variety, capable of being playable at extreme speeds but still eminently readable. Only a handful of putting surfaces, i.e. 7, 14, 17, 18, have any sort of pronounced ridge or contour. The rest are matters of slope and degree with an occasional depression or side pocket.

That said, the place has irrefutable charm and presence. It's really an intoxicating place. I think it's a wonderful property with a routing that attacks the hills directly rather than at angles, especially on the second nine where 10, 11, 13, and 15 stride uphill and 12, 14, and 16 are full speed ahead back down.

Only one of the world's top 29 money winners bettered -7, and I can't quite figure out why. My guess is that the heavy bermuda rough and only 8 par fives in four days had something to do with it.

[BCrosby]

I read something the other day that changes my views - slightly - of Rees's work at EL.

Charlie Harrison, a mover and shaker in Atlanta golf circles and a longtime member at EL, was quoted recently as saying that he vetoed Tom Cousin's desire for a Ross "restoration" of EL. Harrison wanted a "rennovation".

Confirming Derek's suspicions, Harrison was worried that a restoration would not stand up against Tour players.

Thus the early publicity put out by EL that they were doing a restoration was a knowing falsehood. But Rees should not be blamed for the head fake. He was not asked to do a restoration, apparently.

That does not change my views about the shortcomings of Rees's changes to the current course. I do think, however, that Rees stands exonerated from any claims that he butchered what was supposed to be a restoration. Apparently the inner circles at EL - with a Tour stop in mind - had decided early on that a restoration was not what they wanted.

Bob

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