260 yard uphill par 3 in 1926

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Regarding the strategic utility of placing a bunker short and right of the approach on #7---there is a similar situation around the area. The effective playability of that approach shot on #7 RG is quite similar to the approach shot on GMGC's #3 that also has a right to left carooming bank on the right coming into the green and to the right of the green. On our #3 hole, Donald Ross came back ten years (1927) after the course opened and placed a bunker about 25 yards short and right of the green (on the bank) on that hole! His logic in doing that is basically the same as ours is for placing a bunker short and right of RG's #7 green.

[mike_malone]

TEPaul,

   There are many holes that are similar to #7,but there is a subtlety on this hole that I think can get lost by placing a bunker on the right.
     As one approaches the green the hill begins to allow the ball to run away from the green.This is not recognized by many,but I have studied this quite a bit. This chance that one may see their ball going up the hill leaves a downhill  shot to a green that runs away from you.
A bunker would catch many of these balls. I just do not think it is necessary here. I can understand that Ross saw a need to change #3 GMGC,but Flynn on his ventures back to RG saw no need to change this hole.

[TEPaul]

The ball goes up the hill and stays there at RG's #7 does it Mike? What do you have over there some kind of new found physics? There're a couple of very simple ways of preventing a ball from running up a bank and stopping there, such as cutting the grass a bit lower in that area.

[mike_malone]

 Tom
    If we cut the grass the ball will roll more up the hill.

[mike_malone]

 Tom,
        About 25-30 yards from the green the slope of the hill splits.Some 15 yards from the right side of the green the slope goes up the hill;to the left of that it slopes toward the green.That is why the fairway needs to go back to where it was in width,so that this bifurcation is not nullified by rough.

[TEPaul]

"Tom
    If we cut the grass the ball will roll more up the hill."

Mike:

That may be true but some old fart way back when came up with the novel idea that what goes up must come down again and to date physics seems to say that noone has proven him wrong!  

It very well may be that physics happen differently at RG than in the rest of the natural world! And if that fact happens to be true, then I'd say, no, a bunker shouldn't be put in there because the right side of RG's #7 hole has something going on that's extremely rare and that it should be preserved at all costs. NuNuNuNu!!

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
        About 25-30 yards from the green the slope of the hill splits.Some 15 yards from the right side of the green the slope goes up the hill;to the left of that it slopes toward the green.That is why the fairway needs to go back to where it was in width,so that this bifurcation is not nullified by rough."

Mike:

Do you think maybe Flynn cut a little drainage swale along the right side there so water off the hill would go around the green and not come flowing directly across the green? Come look at what Ross did to the right of our #3 green and you might find it's about the same thing.

[mike_malone]

 I will look at this later today. I would love to see the work at GMGC.

[TEPaul]

"I would love to see the work at GMGC."

Come on over any time. You know where to find me.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mayday,
I'm mesmerized by the movie. In fact, I'm still trying to figure all of it out! But it was a good honest attempt at showing the bare-all/lets see everything on the inside of an affluent East coast country club.

That was one crazy club!

[Sam Sikes]

17 at TCCPP must have been the one I am thinking of that is one of my favorite holes of all time.

[Mike_Cirba]

It's great to talk about Flynn wanting to make a golfer play an exact shot, but a 260y 1 shoter that requires a low hook that will roll onto the green. Hmmmm

What do the poor left handers do ? A low fade just isn't going to roll like a low hook.

Andrew;

As a lefthander, I can attest that I've never been anywhere near that green despite multiple attempts.  It's horribly awkward to me standing on the tee as I realize that I need a pretty good cut shot with  a driver to reach the green.  

It also doesn't help that my game has withered and died over the past two months.  

[wsmorrison]

Tom Paul,

I think Mike Malone's posts are a sure fire sign that he spends too much time with BillV    Not only are they unintelligible but they call for new laws of physics.  Not only is Flynn spinning in his grave with Maloneisms but so are Einstein, Fermi, Tesla, Planck, and Bohr.  Steven Hawking's wheelchair is spinning around in circles.  This Quaker needs to be roughed up a bit and set straight  

[wsmorrison]

Mike C,

Keep coming back to RGGC till you finally get #10 right; you're always welcome, even after you master the 245 yard uphill cut shot!  

[wsmorrison]

Some Maloneisms:

"There are many holes that are similar to #7,but there is a subtlety on this hole that I think can get lost by placing a bunker on the right."

I have no idea what this means; meaningless drivel    

"About 25-30 yards from the green the slope of the hill splits.Some 15 yards from the right side of the green the slope goes up the hill"

There's no such thing as a downslope of a hill?  Please investigate the newly found force known as gravity.

Tom Paul makes a great observation about Ross's design at GMGC #3 hole.  Let's see, The Donald came back 10 years later and put a bunker on the right short of the green, a similar concept to my own suggestion.  I guess Donnie and I got it wrong.  Flynn didn't put one in, so even if it will work great, as it does at Gulph Mills and Merion, since Flynn didn't do it, it shouldn't be done.  Faulty logic, you need an introduction to logic textbook.

Now, Mike.  I overheard the director saying about your extra work in double-knit pants, patent white leather belt and shoes (you didn't need wardrobe, they were in your closet) that you didn't have a good side so how can he use you in the film.  Don't worry, there's always radio!  

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Perhaps the real reason Flynn didn't put a bunker in later on RG's #7 like Donald did on GMGC's #3 is Flynn was spending so much time over at GMGC trying to fix the turf on our greens after pro/superintendent John Reid (formerly of Atlantic City C.C.) completely screwed it all up and he just didn't have the time. If Flynn could come back and talk to us (as he does from time to time) about RG's #7 there's no question he'd tell us to put a bunker in on the right about 25 yards from that green and then take Mike Malone out for dinner at a local diner and put him on the inside of a booth and pummel the lights out of him if he didn't agree!

For most members of golf clubs respectful education is the best policy but if that doesn't work brute physical force is the next best option!

[mike_malone]

 I give up-I'm just wrong.

 

[wsmorrison]

By Jove, I think you've got it!  Whereas BillV remains hopelessly ignorant, you have shown a remarkable capacity for reason

Now Tom Paul won't have to pummel you at the local diner!  Its a scary sight to see him mad, I can tell you that.  Remember, he was in the Marines.

[TEPaul]

"I give up-I'm just wrong."

Wayne:

Do you see that?? How many times have I told you I always knew that Mike Malone was a wise and completely sensible man---and that you are a big booby if you ever suspected otherwise?

[RSLivingston_III]

There is of course the ball issue in the mid-20's. 1926-27 was about the peak in how hot the ball became. By 1930 the guys were playing the regulated ball at 1.68"/1.55oz, as opposed to avalable balls that were 1.62", or less, and 1.72oz, or heavier. Carry drives over 300 yards were accomplished by the long drivers of the day. 260 yards for a top player in 1926-27 would not have required a driver. In 1930, it would have been a different situation.
Please review the quotes I put into the interview I did for Ran earlier this year.There are quotes for shot distances and statements from the architects.

[wsmorrison]

Ralph,

Thank you for your insights and expertise in balls and implements from the 1920s and 1930s.  This is valuable information as it relates to understanding design intent.  I am going back to re-read carefully your feature interview....first I have to take the dog out  
Best regards,
Wayne

[mike_malone]

 There are four par fives at Rolling Green.Three of them have bunkers near the green.That was enough for Flynn;it is enough for me.

 The information about how far woods were hit around that time also convinces  me that an unimpeded runup is the shot called for on this hole.
     Mr.Morrison and Mr. Paul take your bunker and ..........

[TEPaul]

OK Mike, good logic---I'll agree with you but only if the club uses that ground as a run-up. Have they taken all those trees off that bank yet and put it into fairway grass so a golfer CAN USE that area as "golfing ground" for the caroom shot?

[wsmorrison]

Your reasoning lacks one thing, reason.

"There are four par fives at Rolling Green."

First of all, Rolling Green should be played today as a par 70 with 3 par 5s for championship purposes.  The 18th should definitely be played as a par 4 for low handicappers.  The back tee that the club is contemplating is ridiculous.  Put the white tees on the current back tee (it is apparently obsoleted) and let the members play as a par 5, however the blue tees should remain a par 4 in front of the whites.  This is sound architecturally as well as playability.  I don't get how the membership can be so uncertain about this.  Instead of worrying about a bunker on 7, in my opinion, your political efforts would be better spent on the subject of the setup on 18.  Placing a tee back to where it is considered certainly takes the corner out of play for all but the longest hitters.  Then what does the hole present?  Two medium shots to a large green.  A dull conclusion following a great 17 holes.

"Three of them have bunkers near the green.That was enough for Flynn;it is enough for me."

Another classic Maloneism.  If this isn't as superficial analysis and conclusion as it gets, I don't know what is or what could be.  What happened to:

"I give up-I'm just wrong."

Were you talking to BillV lately and getting all muddled with scatterbrained nonsense?  It sure seems like it    You sound more like a Kerry Democrat flip-flopper.  Stop thinking, Mike, it is not what you do best    

[wsmorrison]

Tom Paul,

What?  Agreeing with a Maloneism is a far worse offense than agreeing with Pat Mucci.  I think you must still be feeling the effects of the national election.

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