260 yard uphill par 3 in 1926

[mike_malone]

 Another thought on the #5 fairway idea---only #12 and to some extent #14 are greens angled to the desired approach line. #12  and #14 have severe hill penalties for missing the green .
 So, #5 is the only hole where this idea could work(a less severe penalty);it does not cost much to do ;it is not irrrevocable;and it would usually test the better golfer not the high handicapper.

[mike_malone]

Cabell,
    I find "older members" memory very unreliable.I would really be interested how far Flynn required a forced carry for that hole when designed and built. I guess Wayne has the plans.

[ChasLawler]

Mike,
Memory is all we can go on for now.

As far as I know, Wayne  doesn't have the plans for this hole. He has his hands on the original two 18's Flynn proposed at CCV (the Valley and the Hill), but only one course was built using a combination of holes from the Valley and the Hill Course. The 14th, along with a few other holes, were apparently not part of the original 36 Flynn proposed.

Keep in mind that short is not dead on this hole - you just face an awkward uphill chip. It's an easy bogey if you play for it. The serious trouble is long and left.

[mike_malone]

Cabell,
  Thanks for your reply.

[mike_malone]

Something about photos.That cart path looks hideous in that photo.But when you stand on the tee which is a few feet above that level,you see only the beauty of the hole.I now understand a little better why we disagree about photos on this site.

[mike_malone]

Another factor that may have inspired Flynn on this hole is that he
 "could" put a championship tee considerably farther back than the member's tee without compromising the hole. On this site there was room to go way back and use the slope of the land for runup possibilities.#6 at the same course has 40-50 yards more that could have been used,but there is no place for a short shot to run up.

 Even #14---190-200 uphill allowed some running ground  40 yards +/- short of the green.

    The variety provided by that 260 yard possibility is intriguing.

   To capture the concept of 1926 would the tee need to be 290 today?

[Sam Sikes]

The 10th at Farmington in Charlottesville is a 255 yard par 3 that is wonderful.  The green is small, sloped, and anything missed to the right is dead.  I think the architect was Fred Findlay.  Did he ever do any work with Flynn.  Also, the 15th at Cascades, another bitch.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

On 14, the ability to run the ball up the slope is not reliable with a low fade nor is it the shot testing that Flynn likely intended.  The slope is too severe and the angle of the tee shot is wrong.  The only real possibility is to run the ball after a sufficient carry along a straight line of flight to the front left of the green.  The required shot Flynn likely intended on 14 was a high fade or cut shot with a long iron or fairway wood.  Now, with the modern ball and clubs you can hit a high straight shot into the center of the green with anywhere from a 5 iron or 7 wood from the white tee and a 4 iron to 5 wood from the back tee.  A new tee behind the path and slightly up the hill about 20 yards or so would make a nice modernization of the hole.  Along with a back tee on 10, the round would require a driver on one par 3 (10) and a 3 wood on another (14).  Can anyone think of  a course where this is required for a low handicap player?  Is it something golfers would appreciate?

Sam,

I am not aware that Flynn worked with Fred Findlay at any time.  He well might have known him as Findlay supposedly did a redesign of Flynn's James River Cse in 1931 and some redesign work at Flynn's Washington Golf and CC (not sure when).  Findlay also designed Yardley CC in Yardley, PA in 1929 and that is not far from Flynn's home.  Alex Findlay worked in eastern PA during Flynn's lifetime so they may have met through that connection as well.

Cabell,

You're right, I couldn't find any holes in the collection of Flynn drawings for CCV that would correspond to the hole you posted.  It looks like a good one though!

Paul

Thanks for reposting the thread.

[wsmorrison]

Mike Malone,

I am far from advocating its implementation, but to follow your design logic, why wouldn't you look to put in fairway height behind the green on 10?  I end up behind the green somewhat often, especially with firm and fast conditions through the green and on the green.  I find a chip back to a rear pin position very difficult out of the deep rough.  If you had a chipping area, the shot would be longer off a tight lie.  Also, the trees behind the green would have to come out, which they should anyway.  Again, I am not a huge fan of chipping areas but that would be a spot I would think you'd consider.  I think I'd prefer it there rather than on 5 if you have to have more chipping areas.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

That picture that Mike posted reminds me of a hole I once saw in this all-time movie classic called, "A Gentleman's Game" starring Dennis The Menace..... (It was on again last night and the night before on Showtime.)

Noel, seems to be the one that really gets it here. Its a par 3 1/2, but some of you already knew that didn't you!

[wsmorrison]

K Durrant,

Sorry, I missed your post:

"Looking at the 9th hole original plan, it appears that some strategy has been lost, based on the absence of the right sided bunker at 200 yds and the right-sided "rough gulley" at 350 yds?"

The bunker on the right is there, its just not visible in the photograph.  The fairway width is not what it once was (like most courses) but the bunker is there with a margin of rough between it and the fairway.  If you go to the My Home Course article I wrote, you'll see it in the background of one of the photos of the 12th hole.  It is big and bad.

[John Goodman]

The 10th at Farmington in Charlottesville is a 255 yard par 3 that is wonderful.  The green is small, sloped, and anything missed to the right is dead.  I think the architect was Fred Findlay.  Did he ever do any work with Flynn.  Also, the 15th at Cascades, another bitch.

Sam, have you played Farmington since they redid the greens there?  Any material changes to the holes?

I saw your earlier post about Turtle Point, CC of B, etc.  You from 'round here?

John  

[Sam Sikes]

John Goodman,

I am originally from Huntsville, AL, but now I go to school in Richomond, Virginia.  I have played CC of B, and Turtle Point many times.  I love them both.  Where are you located?  I haven't played Farmington in two years or so.  I am interested to see the changes.  I think that could be an excellent golf course if there was more interesting slopes on and around the greens.  Additionally, the common bermuda on the fairways is my least favorite playing surface.  I wish there was another option in Charlottesville, but Im not really sure there is.

[mike_malone]

Wayne,

    I know you are having fun disagreeing with everything I say. You may have too much time on your hands. My reference to #14 was to indicate that it likely could not be any longer in 1926 than it was. I agree that the landing area short is not ideal,but it is better than the runup area at#6.The point is that #10 was the ideal place to put a back tee much farther back than the middle tee.

     You may have missed my point on #5.To add another fairway area it is  best to make it  on a hole where the green sits at an angle,because there are few of these holes on the course.There are many other holes like #10 where it could be at the back as well-----2(running up to #3 tee),7(add more room to roll)9 could be a blast trying to have the ball roll back down the hill,17,again all the way to #18 tee and now #18 right into the new #10 290yd. tee

[mike_malone]

 I choose the angled green to limit its effect to the recovery shot (usually) that comes from the right.The other places would catch any shot that just goes long.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

     You may have missed my point on #5.To add another fairway area it is  best to make it  on a hole where the green sits at an angle,because there are few of these holes on the course.There are many other holes like #10 where it could be at the back as well-----2(running up to #3 tee),7(add more room to roll)9 could be a blast trying to have the ball roll back down the hill,17,again all the way to #18 tee and now #18 right into the new #10 290yd. tee

Mike-

Your above post wasn't directed at me, but looking at Wayne's "My Home Course" before, I thought 7 might be interesting as a hole to add potential fairway cut to surrounding the green.  What clubs do most players hit into 7?  If I recall correctly, the green has a swale that will funnel shots towards back left---I could be mistaken here.  

Where exactly would you make changes to RGGC #9?  

I tend to agree with you about 17 green as well--I seem to recall it being rather large and open in front, and not particularly undulating--and at under 500, I am guessing most players would go for it in two.  

KDurrant;  Wayne's right, the bunker is big and bad.  I should know, I was in it.  

Mike and Wayne-  One question--I didn't think #9 green was as quick as it looks, back to front; I was in the left greenside bunker, played my wedge 10-20 feet above the hole, and it just stopped. (Yeah, I was out in 1, believe it   ) I expected it to roll down the green towards the front (I seem to recall the hole being middle or maybe middle left).  Am I that good, or is the green not that quick?  

[Sam Sikes]

Wayne,

Thanks for responding.  I notices from some of your earlier threads that you are very knowledgeable on the life and work of Flynn.  That being said, what are your favorite holes at Country in Pepper Pike, OH.  I always thought that club had a great ambiance to it.  Are all of the holes there originals?  I felt like most of the golf course was excellent, but a few holes didn't seem to fit.  The back nine was especially wonderful.  I loved 12 or 13 and 16.  I can't really remember all of the holes, its been a while.  Maybe that is why it doesn't recieve better press.

[Doug Siebert]

That's quite an amazing hole for that long ago.  From his drawing, it looks like a back tee position to a back pin position is 285 yards!!  What is the prevailing wind direction there?

You rarely see holes that long even today, except at elevation or if its a drop shot.  A local course built a second nine this year, and the 9th hole is now a dead flat 245 yard par 3 from the back tees.  OB left, hazard short, right AND long!  There's about 20 yards left and 20 yards short that's a bailout so it isn't quite as bad as it sounds, but the hazard behind, right and short right are right up there by the elevated green.  It plays with the prevailing wind, but I think its almost more difficult that way since it is still a long iron and if you take the fat part of the green on the left it slopes away from you after the first 30 feet.

Quite rare to see a par 3 that long with that many difficulties presented to the golfer.  Since the blues are only 6200 yards or so for the course, but still 210 yards on that hole, there are plenty of golfers who play the blues, but move up to the whites at 165 just on that hole.

[T_MacWood]

Didn't the USGA have fairly clear guidelines as to what constitutes a par-3 or par-4 yardage wise (for men and women)? I suspect the 260 yards fell into the par-4 range. It appears to me this hole was designed to be played as a 260 yard drivable par-4 or a 220 yard par-3 from the forward tee.

[Andrew Summerell]

It's great to talk about Flynn wanting to make a golfer play an exact shot, but a 260y 1 shoter that requires a low hook that will roll onto the green. Hmmmm

What do the poor left handers do ? A low fade just isn't going to roll like a low hook.

[wsmorrison]

Doug,

Believe me, when the green conditions are firm and fast the 9th green is very difficult.  The green has a severe slope in back to front and it is very quick at 9-10 feet.  There is a little poof in the center left which creates a bit of a shelf back left and balls will stay there.  This is probably what happened to you.  Most putts from back to front (especially center and right) are lightning fast.  The pull-up mound in the back (indicated by the hatchings shown in the drawing)  adds perspective to the golfer on the fairway shot, adds slope to the green, and assists with surface drainage.

Sam,

The routing at TCC, Pepper Pike is as good as it gets.  There's only about 40-50 feet of overall elevation change on the course and Flynn gets every bit of it just right.  17 is the most memorable hole on the course among many.  It is a short par 4 but the diagonals on the tee shot over a ridge are awesome and the green site is amazing...so much topographic movement.  I don't have any photos to post, but I am being sent some.  1 is a great starting hole, 2 a fine dogleg right par 5, 3 a very fine short par 4 returned to its original design with a very difficult approach to a well-bunkered raised green extended on the right.  It goes on and on.  A collection of very solid holes makes for a wonderful golf course.  The par 3s are all very good but in about the same yardage range.  

Doug,

Good question about the prevailing wind.  10 plays in the opposite direction from 9.  Maybe Mike Malone knows the answer to this.  I believe 9 plays south and 10 north.  I should know this but am unsure this morning.

Tom,

The USGA guidelines may state what is what but they are only guidelines and not hard and fast rules...at least I don't think they are.  The scorecard shows the hole opened at 243 yards and a par of 3.

[wsmorrison]

Andrew,

The poor lefty better be able to chip and putt well on this hole.  There is enough variety in the shot requirements and shapes that I don't believe a lefty is at a complete disadvantage.  This hole in the Golden Age, yes you are correct.  But the need to plan out a strategy with this in mind adds to overall test.  In match play, the lefty may have had to take his chances with his short game and make up the hole elsewhere if necessary.  You make an excellent point to consider the setup from both sides so to speak.

[mike_malone]

 Prevailing wind is into you on #9---Dave Staebler tells me it blows down #2.

 Wayne,
     As we discussed tree removal to get morning sun,Warren said it comes up over #10 green.I certainly see it setting over #15---one of the most beautiful sights anywhere.


   I could see moving back tee to 640 on #9.John Gosselin mentioned that to me last week.

    Doug,

     The idea of having fairway wraparound #7 on the right is out there already..It would add to the fun of the running shot.#9 green flattens out a little in the middle but when the pin is back or front watch out! See no need for  big changes on #9.I can see extending the fairway closer to first fairway bunker.

   Wayne has suggested removing evergreens between bunkers on #9 and #12--I love that idea.I could see a hook off of #12 landing in #9 bunker--good luck!

    12 hdcpers,like myself, have the most fun on #7.The smart shot is 3-wood layup,midiron layup to wedge.I know very few who do it. The chance to hit a good drive and then go for it with a 3 or 5 wood is too appealing. That is what makes it one of the best  teeshots anywhere then comes the second shot ---how far up the hill do I need to hit it---watch it disappear over the hill-reappear turning left hard--will it make the green or roll into the bunker---go-go-great it made the green--stop-stop-oh well it rolled over the green!

     
   
     

[mike_malone]

 Tom MacWood,
    What you say makes some sense. From the back tees there are three par 4 1/2s.But for the average player --15+ hdcp- these are par fives. So, it could make sense to have a par 3  1/2 for the back tees to round out the course.

    Are there other examples of long par 3 for middle tees and short par 4 for back tees?

[mike_malone]

 Tommy,
  You have become an expert on "A Gentleman's Game". The first scene shows Mason Gamble arriving at the cart area.In the background people are walking off #10 tee. Unfortunately, the camera stops moving before it shows ME putting for 1 1/2 hours on the practice putting green. I also was in the initial group going off #10 but was asked to move to the green.
    Why was this? I think my right side is good. I did not question the director much but I think this was a serious mistake in judgement and my film career has suffered as a result. But, I HAVE GOTTEN OVER IT

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