[Patrick_Mucci]

What greens present a great challenge, from any and every angle ?

# 6 and # 7 at NGLA would seem to play as great greens irrespective of the angle of approach.

In general, I'd say almost any road hole green meets that qualification, although, the road hole green at Piping Rock, with it's cant, might not work from the down angles.

And, I think almost every short green, with their unique internal contours meet that test.

What greens that you've played could be played from any angle of approach, while preserving the challenge of the hole/green ?

I'd also select # 2 at GCGC, # 12 at ANGC and # 13 at Pine Tree.

[Mike Benham]

Patrick -

I have always been intrigued by the 14th at ANGC.  Without any bunkers and with many slopes and bowls, it seems that it was designed to be a 360 green.

Mike

[wsmorrison]

There should still be preferred angles of approaches to the greens you mention.  Are there?  I would hope that these great 360 degree greens you observe have some strategic value going back to the tee shot.  I've not seen NGLA enough to know the greens you refer to and I've never been to the other courses you mentioned.

[TEPaul]

I believe some of the greens mentioned, and others, should be used in new construction architecture in other arrangements and from other angles. I think a particularly interesting hole would be NGLA's #7 used as a par 3 of about 175 yards from an angle about 50 yards behind #8 tee. I'd also like to see about a 430 yard par 4 coming at the other end of the green from over in the direction of #11.

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
  Are you referring to full shots only, or short game shots too?

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat, would this qualify?

[igrowgrass]

The Par 3 6th at Oakmont, there is no place to 'miss' that green.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Number 10 at Pine Valley is another of those cannot miss anywhere..the devil's arsehole in front and nothing but smellies left, right and long...truly 360* of disaster

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Me again, how about number 3 at Merion?
A true brute if missed anywhere..boy I love par threes..they really are such a great test of golf, and my favourite kind of holes.

[igrowgrass]

The Par 3 8th at Maidstone. Don't miss it in that blind bunker right.

[Brian_Gracely]

#3 and #17 at Raleigh CC, especially if the pin is in the middle of the green on either hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Benham,

I think # 14 at ANGC might be unplayable from the 9 to 12 o'clock angles.

Michael Wharton Palmer,

Likewise, I think # 10 at PVGC might be unplayable from the
10:00 to 2:00 O'clock angles.

TEPaul,

We discussed # 7 at NGLA on site with George Bahto, one year ago this weekend.  I think we all agreed, that from 360 degrees this green would be a wonderful challenge, on the approach and on any recovery.

The angle you favored, hitting to the narrow neck from a slightly elevated tee, would certainly provide a visually intimidating shot.

I also favor the approach from the 1 to 4 O'clock angles of attack.

In a sense, # 15 at ANGC has some similar characteristics, that triangle like configuration where hole locations in the narrow part of the green are a real test.

The neat thing about both holes is, at # 7 you see nothing immediately behind the green, leaving the mind to wonder about one's fate for going long.  Those that have played the golf course know a DEEP bunker runs along the back, and are always conscious of its presence.

At # 15 at ANGC, the fronting water, green and then the view of nothing but water behind the green, despite the fact that about 50 yards of turf is between the rear of the green and the water, is extremely intimidating, especially to the first time player.

Triangular greens, canted at an angle with surrounding penal features seem to work well from almost any direction of approach or recovery.

Adam Clayman,

That certainly looks like a green that would work from any angle.  My only question would be, if the contours in the green are approachable from every angle.  Pictures sometimes don't give us a high degree of definintion.  could this green be approached from 11-12 O'clock angles ? (as the green is depicted in the photo, with 12 being at the top of the picture)

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat, There's only one problem, this hole is a drop shot par 3. I don't know the hole, yet. But, I assume the tee orientation is more from the 4 o'clock position. With the chipping area at the 12 O'clock position, I don't see why it couldn't have been oriented that way. Plus who knows? maybe there's a boomerang tee with capability from that angle?

This is the thrid hole at Sevon Canyons. A Weiskopf design in Sedona, Az. I hope to get there in the near future.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
We discussed # 7 at NGLA on site with George Bahto, one year ago this weekend.  I think we all agreed, that from 360 degrees this green would be a wonderful challenge, on the approach and on any recovery."

Pat:

I realized we stood there and discussed that. We particularly discussed coming at that green from the right or narrow end, and I mentioned coming at it from the left or wider and more open end (from the area of the 11th fairway would be interesting at the end of a long par 4 as it would play in some ways strategically like the green of PVGC's #1 (wide non-penal front to narrow more penal rear).

But we never discussed at all what it would play like if a golfer came at that green from the area of say the 8th right fairway. So we never discussed it from 360 degrees.

In my opinion, that iteration would be a poor one (actually sort of a dumb one) and a poor angle to play to a green like that!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

We clearly remember your desire to have the green play at
150-170 from the angle of the 8th tee.

We agreed that it would make for a great hole.

I believe the cold that day froze your powers of recollection.

We discussed the need to hit it long in order to benefit from a larger target, and putt back to the narrow neck.

We also discussed the fate of shots hit short.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

That's true---that's what I do recall standing around out there and discussing. What was never mentioned, though, was using a green or a design like it to be played to from the direction of the 8th fairway. In my mind that would not work well at all---and so I say this green would not work in an entire 360 degree sense, in my opinion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Approaching from # 8 fairway, or a little right of # 8 fairway would present almost an identical approach as exists on # 15 at ANGC.  The only difference is, substitute the deep bunker for water at the base of a steep slope.

I think one could also make the case that the 8th green would have the same type of configuration, wide in the front, with a steep front and side, narrowing in the rear.

# 7 green from # 8 fairway, absent the elevation disparity, presents almost the identical challenge.

[Jeff Fortson]

#10 Riviera


Jeff F.

[TEPaul]

Pat and Jeff Forston:

If you're trying to make the case that NGLA's #7 green would make a good hole coming from behind it or Riviera's #10 green would make for a good hole coming from the right of it I think you are people who are trying to make the case that anything can work in architecture. I don't subscribe to that theory.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Once again you make an irrational leap in logic.
I never said that everything can work, only that the 7th green at NGLA, and some others can work from any of the 360 degrees of approach.

I submit that the 7th green at NGLA would work from any angle.

One year ago, standing on the site, you agree with me, stating your preference for an approach from the direction of the 8th tee.

Isn't the approach to #7 green from # 8 fairway similar to the approach to # 15 green at ANGC from the far right fairway and rough ?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
Once again you make an irrational leap in logic.
I never said that everything can work, only that the 7th green at NGLA, and some others can work from any of the 360 degrees of approach."

Pat:

I make an irrational leap in logic?? What the hell are you talking about?

"I submit that the 7th green at NGLA would work from any angle."

Yeah, I know you do, you've said that already a number of times, and I read that a number of times. I just don't agree with you on that. From the right, left or front I think it'd work fine in other hole iterations but not from behind that green.

"One year ago, standing on the site, you agree with me, stating your preference for an approach from the direction of the 8th tee."

I never said anything of the kind. We stood there and talked for quite a while about the green used as a par 3 coming from the right and I just mentioned that coming from the left on the end of a long par 4 it would be somewhat similar to PVGC's #1, but I never said a single thing about coming at it from the rear, and neither did George and neither did you.

"Isn't the approach to #7 green from # 8 fairway similar to the approach to # 15 green at ANGC from the far right fairway and rough?"

I've never been to ANGC or looked that closely at that green. The rear bunker on #7 if approached from #8 isn't a lot like the way ANGC's #15 sets up with Rae's Creek (or whatever it is) in front of it, in my opinion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

At # 15 at ANGC, there is a similarity in the orientation and configuration of the green.

But, tell me why you think an approach from the angle of the 8th fairway wouldn't work at # 7 at NGLA ?

For those attending tomorrow's get together at NGLA, look back to # 7 green as you walk across the road and up # 8 fairway and tell me what you think about approaching the green from that direction.

TEPaul was so cold that day, he can't remember a thing.

[TEPaul]

"But, tell me why you think an approach from the angle of the 8th fairway wouldn't work at # 7 at NGLA?"

The primary reason, in my opinion, is the masive bunker behind a large part of the green (mimicing the road on TOC) is too big and too close to a significant portion of the green that's far too shallow (and probably too flat as well) to realistically handle approach shots coming from the direction of the 8th fairway.

Of course you're certainly welcome to disagree with that and I'm sure you probably will but that would not at all make a good hole, in my opinion. From that direction to a green like that with a massive bunker right in front of most of it the shot probably couldn't be any more than about a wedge and the tee should probably be above the green, something like the previous hole (#6).

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The approach shot into # 15 at ANGC can be from a 3-wood to an L-Wedge, and the left side of that green is narrow.

You seem to forget that the back and mid point of that green is fairly wide, and only Ray Charles and yourself would attempt to fly the ball to the back neck if that was where the hole was cut.

Even on the first hole at Pine Valley, when the pin is located in the far back of the green, the prudent play, which you wouldn't be aware of, is to attack the middle of the green and let the ball feed back to the pin.  Flying the approach all the way back to the pin can end your round before it starts, and is fregquently the shot of choice of a seriously deranged golfer.  So, in that context, I can understand your reluctance to come to grips with the proper, not foolish approach.

And here I thought that I had made so much progress with you over the years.  I can see that I'll have to redouble my efforts.

Does a redan green offer the same angle of attack, and have a similar form to # 7 green from # 8 fairway ?

Please tell me that you're begining to see the light.

[TEPaul]

OK, Pat, then take the 7th green and tilt it up into the oncoming player from over on the 8th fairway, build up the back (presently the front) and cant the whole thing right to left so a ball might filter right to left once it hits the open end of the green and maybe you'd have something sort of redanish but then the green really wouldn't be the road hole green any more, would it?

Have I told you lately you're a BIG BOOBY?

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