Integrated greens and tees

[paul cowley]

hey guys .....the real trick is designing the 'club' tee attached to the preceeding green.

[Don Dinkmeyer]

Interesting discussion.

Two that come to mind are Manistee Country Club (Michigan), which I recently learned was designed by a Scottish designer about the time McKenzie was doing Crystal Downs...

The other is Ardglass, Ireland. It's a small links course near a 15th century tower. Tee off against the clubhouse wall up against the bay. Quite a sight...

Numerous greens/tees closeby which i will attempt to upload -- that will be a first!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

That's true.

I've only played Pacific Dunes.

Hopefully, I'll get out to Sebonack sometime this fall or next spring, and, hopefully, I'll get to play some of your other courses in the not too distant future.

I've been on hiatus for the last two years but I'm planning to make up for lost time ASAP.

Paul Cowley,

A tee on the 2nd hole at NGLA is an adjunct of the 1st green.

[Gerry B]

th 1st tee at Atlantic City GC is part of the practice putting green - roll your last practice putt to the bells (tee blocks) and off you go - makes perfect sense to me.

[SJ_McCarthy]

Correction Pat, Applebrook has more than the two green/tee complexes you mention.  2 green & 3 tee, 6 green & 7 tee, 13 green & 14 tee, 14 green & 15 tee.  You mention 2, there are actually four such of these.

The first hole at NGLA has the 2nd tee directly behind the green.  In fact, part of the green is or was the tee.

The 10th hole at GCGC has the 11th tee directly behind the green.

The 1st hole at Pine Valley has the 2nd tee down, behind the first green.

Other then Gil Hanse's 3rd & 14th tees at Applebrook I don't recall seeing a modern day golf course presenting that relationship.

I understand the liability issues in today's environment, but what other golf courses, new and old, have the next hole tee almost as an integral part of the previous hole's green ?

[ian]

Pat,

The square jutting out of the green was the origional tee?



Someobody metioned it previously, Merion West remains my favourite



By the way Pat, there are lots of modern examples, and lots of historical examples form Travis in particular. You already mentioned Garden City.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian Andrew,

That would be the tee to the immediate right of the first bunker to the right of the flag.

SJ McCarthy,

I don't recall #6 green and #7 tee being continuous, nor do I recall # 14 green and # 15 tee as being continuous, or do you mean right behind each other ?

[SJ_McCarthy]

Pat,

After 300+ rounds at AGC, I can assure you those complexes are the same, mown at same height, shaped to blend into each other, and for the occasional shot hit too long, or god forbid "thin", in play from the preceeding hole.

Ian Andrew,

That would be the tee to the immediate right of the first bunker to the right of the flag.

SJ McCarthy,

I don't recall #6 green and #7 tee being continuous, nor do I recall # 14 green and # 15 tee as being continuous, or do you mean right behind each other ?

[jim_lewis]

Many of the tees at Augusta National are adjacent to the previous green. This is even more true today than a few years ago as several tees have been extended so that they leave hardly any space.  One example which has existed as long as I can remember is the 3rd green and 4th tee.

The second tee at Secession is almost connected to the first green.

The total walking distance between greens and teees at Yeamans Hall is probably the least I have seen. Several tees are immediately adjacent to the previous green.

Safety and litigation concerns probably discourage this situation on modern courses. Plus, there has to be room for the cart path!

[SJ_McCarthy]

Jim,

Correct, Secession #1 grren & 2 tee ARE connected all in one, as in the 2nd green and "Sherman" tees for #3.

One would think that "litigation" might be responsible for not seeing it in todays designs, however, having played close to 500 rounds at courses with such a set up, I can assure you that 99% of mis-hit (or mis-clubbed) shots come up short rather than through the green, with the exception of the occasionbal bladed wedges.

 

Many of the tees at Augusta National are adjacent to the previous green. This is even more true today than a few years ago as several tees have been extended so that they leave hardly any space.  One example which has existed as long as I can remember is the 3rd green and 4th tee.

The second tee at Secession is almost connected to the first green.

The total walking distance between greens and teees at Yeamans Hall is probably the least I have seen. Several tees are immediately adjacent to the previous green.

Safety and litigation concerns probably discourage this situation on modern courses. Plus, there has to be room for the cart path!

[SJ_McCarthy]

Pat,

                                     

Ian Andrew,

That would be the tee to the immediate right of the first bunker to the right of the flag.

SJ McCarthy,

I don't recall #6 green and #7 tee being continuous, nor do I recall # 14 green and # 15 tee as being continuous, or do you mean right behind each other ?

[Jason Mandel]

SJ McCarthy is correct about 6-7 as well as 14-15 at applebrook.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SJ McCarthy & Jason Mandel,

After 300+ rounds at AGC, I can assure you those complexes are the same, mown at same height, shaped to blend into each other, and for the occasional shot hit too long, or god forbid "thin", in play from the preceeding hole.

Do these features, the previous green and the next tee share the same foot pad ?[/color]

[Mike Benham]

Here's a really unique integrated situation I can't say I've ever really heard of before. The large practice putting green at Merion East has had the far corner of it reformed to serve as both a practice putting green but during championships apparently that section will just double as the tip tee on #14.

At Olympic, a portion of the upper putting green is used as the Black teeing ground for the first hole on the Ocean Course.

[SJ_McCarthy]

Yes Pat, they are continious, NOT contigious.  All one level.

Trust me here big guy, like I said, 300+ rounds there pretty much makes MY qualifications on answering this above yours.

SJ McCarthy & Jason Mandel,

After 300+ rounds at AGC, I can assure you those complexes are the same, mown at same height, shaped to blend into each other, and for the occasional shot hit too long, or god forbid "thin", in play from the preceeding hole.

Do these features, the previous green and the next tee share the same foot pad ?[/color]

[Jason Mandel]

sj,

the real question is how the hell have you gotten in 300 plus rounds at applebrook so far  i assume your a member but thats a lot of golf considering the course has only been opened for about 3 years!

Jason

[Patrick_Mucci]

SJ McCarthy,

Yes Pat, they are continious, NOT contigious.  All one level.

Trust me here big guy, like I said, 300+ rounds there pretty much makes MY qualifications on answering this above yours.
I never indicated anything about my qualifications or yours, or their relative weight, only that I didn't recall the green-tee configuration on those holes from the time I toured Applebrook with Gil prior to completion, and the times that I had played there.[/color]

[SJ_McCarthy]

Jason,

The 300+ is by no means even a record, there are a couple of guys who have done much more, yes, I am a member.  Have you played there, do you want to play there?  Let me know, I would be happy to have you & Pat out so we can look at tee boxes, nah, scratch that, let's just go PLAY golf and not discuss it?

sj,

the real question is how the hell have you gotten in 300 plus rounds at applebrook so far  i assume your a member but thats a lot of golf considering the course has only been opened for about 3 years!

Jason

[Jason Mandel]

SJ,

I have played there a few times when you guys were nice enough to have us when white manor was closed.  we are only about 5 minutes down the road from you guys, we should set up a home and home.

i know a few guys over at your place, all really good guys.

jason

[Mike_Trenham]

I too really like this concept, if done right it looks really natural.   But with the need today to provide elasticity for the future is this reasonable?  I can just see a thread in 10 years about how the angle from the new tee of such and such hole for safety reasons has effected the shot values of this hole.  Is this a concern for Architects today?