Is the architecture of Cuscowilla that much better than at Friars Head...

[Joe Perches]

With all else being close.  Architecture in sand beats architecture in red clay everytime.

That depends on what you mean.

My first reading is to disagree.

The outcome may be better, but the architecture itself?

Building a structure from concrete or steel may provide different opportunities for presentation but should probably be judged for merit independently.

Can you elaborate please?

[Tripp_Davis]

I have seen both.  Cuscowilla is not as visually stimulating as Friars Head and the strategy is a little more understated.  However, when you look at the pure substance of both courses, both are very good.  The setting of Friars Head sets a mood that not many sites in the world can offer.  If substance was the only rating category, I would give Friars Head an edge - but not by to much.  I have not paid attention to the Golf Week list lately - what are the 10 considered better than Friars Head?  I would suggest something in there is overrated because Friars Head is about as good as it gets - post or pre WWII.

[DMoriarty]

Given the clearly better and more interesting site that Friars Head sits on and comparing the fact that Cuscowilla sits at 13 on the Modern list while Friars is only two places higher at 11....is it safe to assume either, iether, neither or nor that..

a.  Somethings up
b.  Coore and Crenshaw did better work with the land at Cuscowilla
c.  Cuscowilla is vastly overrated
d.   Friars Head is underrated

e.  The Top 100 Modern Courses list is not a reasonable starting point for a comparison between Friars Head and Cuscowilla.  

I strongly suspect that choice d is also correct but I am going with e.

[Mike_Young]

Joe,
IMHO great architexcture is greatly influenced by the palette and there are no great courses that I know of that are not sand to some extent.  I have designed and built in both and it ain't even close.  That is why GA really doesn't have any great golf courses...red clay....

[jim_lewis]

I've played both. Since I never saw the origonal sites, I can only judge the finished products.  IMHO, Friar's Head is a top 3 modern course (after Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes).  Cuscowilla is the second best course in Georgia by only a very small margin, and is well placed at #13.  Cuscowilla's design brilliance is quite subtle and may not be appreciated by
some (much like Pinehurst #2).

[rgkeller]

David,

I don't need to see Friars Head to know how cool it is....that is why I find it insulting to say Friars Head and Cuscowilla are a toss up because of one being 11 and the other being 13 when I doubt that much about Cuscowilla will truly be inspiring.   One guy above spoke of the strategy of Cuscowilla.....do you really think that at 6,800 yds and in November I will do much more than aim for the middle of the fairway and hit driver as hard and high as possible....I'm struggling to get an interesting thread started on the place....can you imagine the buzz if we were all going to Friars Head this weekend....it would be deafening...

Did Cuscowilla take out any ads in Golfweek?

[Mike_Sweeney]

For those interested, an old Sand Hills vs Friar's Head thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=12476;start=msg210963#msg210963

Enjoy the weekend.

[T_MacWood]

IMO The Golf Club is Pete Dye's best design, followed by Casa de Campo.  It may not have the unworldly natural advantages of Sand Hills and Friars Head, but The Golf Club is definitely in the same class architecturally....in fact I wouldn't argue with anyone who would claimed it was superior.

[JakaB]

I think Brad Klein owes Pete Dye and the golfing world a revamp of a system that puts such emphasis on visuals that a Kidd course of only average architectural interest is ahead of anything Dye ever did.....not to mention when Bandon Trails comes on line and really messes up the deal.

I would propose throwing out all the old ratings of the courses at the Resort at Bandon and letting the three courses find their true place as raters can see each in their own context against each other...leaving...something like Pacific Dunes at 5, Bandon Trails at 7 and Bandon Dunes at 58...

[Mike Hendren]

John,

Interesting that you phrased the question: Is the architecture of Cuscowilla that much better than Friars Head.  Having played the former 3 times but not the latter, I'm speculating that the answer is that the architecture is comparable even if the courses are not.  I like your comment that Cusco is top 25 - I think that's solid.  I've only played 10 of GW's top 100 modern and am inclined to slide Spyglass and WW Pine Barrens in front of Cusco.  

I also love the fact that Dye was dragged into this conversation and regret that the Honors Course is not on the 2004 Hillbilly GYB tour.  After playing there this summer for the first time in over fifteen years, it is a poster boy for the argument that a great golf course can be shaped in an incredible natural setting and exhibit A against the argument that minimalism is the only way to go.  

Nonetheless, I have Lookout Mountain and Cuscowilla all-square in the Ran match-play format so we'll have much to debate on the drive home.

BTW, I'll IM you later today re pick-up.

Mike

[Andy Hughes]

Somebody tell me their honest answer to the same question that gets asked about Pebble all the time:  If Sand Hills and Friar's Head and Pac Dunes and Bandon Dunes weren't where they are, and the scenery werent' so damn drop dead beautiful, would they still be as beloved?  

Nope!

[DMoriarty]

Somebody tell me their honest answer to the same question that gets asked about Pebble all the time:  If Sand Hills and Friar's Head and Pac Dunes and Bandon Dunes weren't where they are, and the scenery werent' so damn drop dead beautiful, would they still be as beloved?  

I havent played Sand Hills, but isn't just down the road from the middle of nowhere?   Was it a place you would have taken your family on scenic-seeking family vacations before Sand Hills?