[wsmorrison]

Which hole does this remind you of?  Would you characterize the bunkering as functional and not stylistic?  In my opinion it is highly stylistic and very functional.  This hole was built exactly as designed.

[wsmorrison]

Color by Disher.

[Daniel_Wexler]

I was wondering about that...

[SPDB]

Wayne -
The obvious answer might be PV #7, but th hole also reminds me of a longer version of PV #13. This hole and the one you displayed yesterday also remind me of #8 on the Primrose Nine at TCC. Which makes me wonder if Flynn was at all formulaic in his designs. A lot is lost, however, without reference to elevation change.

[Mike_Young]

Wayne,
This is where I become confused regarding many classic golf details.

 I see a two dimensional picture but where is the design.  I see no construction details or elevations or contour cut/fill. No clearing plan, bunker depths, mounding heights or greens details.  People have told me some of these guys did such detailed drawings but I just don't see it.  Perhaps there was a specification and detail booklet attached or was this what they called plans?  Don't take me wrong, it is a good picture but that is all I see.  IMHO I don't see how one can build a golf course with such drawings.
Mike

[Joe Hancock]

The only thing that strikes me as not functional would be the bunkers between tee and fairway, but as Mike Young alludes, it's tough to tell from a 2D aerial drawing what their purpose might be. They might penalize the golfer that already sucks.

Joe

[wsmorrison]

SPDB, Mike, and Joe:

This is not a construction drawing.  This drawing was taken from the india ink on linen drawings used to make the original course guide.  I recall Dan Wexler mentioning that he heard there was an original floating around somewhere, then a few days later we came across all the original drawings!  

This course was built on essentially flat ground and Flynn used man made hazards including mounds, formal bunkers and sandy waste areas to create strategy and interest.  

I'll post an example of detailed construction instructions so you will get a feel for how precise Flynn was.  He designed on paper after spending time on site and usually after several iterations came up with the final plan.  A lot of our drawings do not have the construction instructions.  This doesn't mean he didn't use them, he did.  In many cases we just don't have the set with the instructions--these were used by the construction crew and most likely discarded.  

We do have some typewritten instructions that were added to the drawings at some point but only about 20% of the drawings we have have instructions.  He used them extensively and always we just don't have them in many cases--in some cases we only have preliminary drawings and not final ones.  He drew a lot, we simply don't have everything but we sure do have a very large number at our disposal.

[wsmorrison]

Joe,

This hole played into the prevailing winter wind.  Remember, this was a resort course near the ocean.  The winds were often pretty stiff.  Not everyone playing it in the early 1930s was capable of hitting 150 yard carries into the wind.  The front bunker complex would certainly weigh on some players' minds and present an interesting color and texture variety from the tee.

[Mark_Fine]

Flynn did a Pine Valley #7 style hole at Cherry Hills as well.  We have some good photos of this hole taken shortly before the 1938 U.S. Open.  The bunkering looks great but I'm not sure I'd call it wild or artistic.  But that doesn't mean anything negative.  I think it looks superb and is what I would have expected to see from Flynn.  

[Marc Haring]

It reminds me of #17 Bultusrol Upper.

[Bill Gayne]

Wayne,

Great stuff! I'm looking at the routing of the course in Daniel Wexler's book. For me to get some orientation did holes 15-18 play along the ocean? It could have been a brutal stretch on a day with strong winter winds. However, 10-13 playing downwind probably provided the scoring opportunities.

[Mike_Young]

Wayne,
Thanks for the update.  I see your construction details on the other post.
Mike

[TEPaul]

Wayne;

Notice how much that drawing looks like the first iteration (drawing) of Shinnecock's #16. He obviously altered that app 100 yard long Sahara bunker set effect at Shinnecock in the next two drawing iterations but other than that it initially looked a lot like that drawing above. The green at Shinnecock is angled slightly the other way but other than that....

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

What Flynn should have done with that drawing and design is to flip all the fairway above the shot line in the second half fairway section over to the area underneath the shot line. If he'd done that he would've had precisely what Crump was in the process of doing to PVGC's #7 when he died. See that mound on the far right side of the Sahara bunker section? Crump wanted the golfer to hit the second shot right over that to the ideal postion to approach the #7 green which is angled out to the right just as that one in the drawing above is. Crump called that mound (which is still there at the far right side of HHA) his "miniature alps"! The ideal shot to the right side of the second fairway section was supposed to be blind and long!

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

At Boca Raton South, the second shot at 15 and holes 16-18 ran south to north nearly perpendicular to Camino Real Drive.  10-13 are shorter holes (13 was a short par 5) andwere important to score with the wind.  Stopping the ball on the green may have been tough.  Ideal shots with the wind might have just carried some of the bunkers and run onto the green.

Mike,

I'm glad I had a good representation of the detail that Flynn utilized in his instructions.

Tom,

Right you are.  One of the iterations of the 16th at Shinnecock is similar to this drawing.  Fascinating about the intentions of Crump at #7 at Pine Valley and the use of the mounding in HHA.  

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I've played a ton of golf at a couple of courses just up the road (A1A) from the old Flynn Boca South course and the most common wind (in season) would be right over your right shoulder as you proceed along holes that run south to north along the ocean. That would make Boca South's last four holes primarily down wind or with a slight hooking wind. There're all kinds of winds down there due to the tropics but the most common (or prevailing wind) in season is right out of the south/south east.

[wsmorrison]

I know you have played a lot of golf along the east coast of Florida and lived there for a time.  I believe you.  I was told by someone in the business that the prevailing winter wind was out of the north northeast.  Guess he got it wrong.

[TEPaul]

"I was told by someone in the business that the prevailing winter wind was out of the north northeast.  Guess he got it wrong."

Not necessarily. The wind sure can blow out of the north (probably that "weather change/bad weather's acoming" type of thing) but the far more common prevailing wind in my experiences of over 45 years down there in the season is that holes running south to north play with a prevailing hooking wind coming in off the Ocean out of the south/south east. Maybe when the guy in the business was down there the wind was howling out of the north!    

[Craig Disher]

The photo record of Boca Raton South is pretty thin but what's available shows it was as dramatic as the drawing Wayne posted.

This oblique photo taken in 1942, just after the course was closed, shows features identical to those in the drawing. Even the small islands in the bunker next to the green are still visible.

Wayne - do you have any thoughts on what Flynn's reputation would have been had this course been saved rather than the more mundate North.

[Craig Disher]

Before anyone thinks I'm dense, I did notice that the fairway on the right was extended parallel to the Sahara bunkers. A long fairway bunker also appears to have been added on the right - although that might be just a natural feature.

Perhaps the wind over the right shoulder was running too many drives into the Sahara bunkers and an adjustment in strategy was needed.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I think the strategy of the hole becomes even better with the shoulder wrapping around the Sahara bunkers (HHA) quite obviously it was probably reckoned as such later on in the field or after some play.

Craig,
Boy do I have something to show you concerning Rec Park/Virginia CC in Long Beach!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

I hate to admit it, but TEPaul is correct with respect to the direction of the prevaiing winter wind.  North winds are rather infrequent and can play havoc at many courses in the area.

I'm curious if any part of Boca Raton South is incorporated into the current golf course that exists to the immediate south of the Boca Raton Hotel course (north), the Royal Palm Yacht and Tennis club course.

It would be interesting if either Craig Disher or Scott Burroughs can get a current aerial of the Royal Palm Yacht and Tennis golf course and the Hotel Course so that we might have a look.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
I think this is it. I had it from before.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

My understanding, it may be wrong, is that there is no holes nor common ground in the current South course.  There may be some ground on the current North course but there is no surviving Flynn holes.  As you say, the best way to determine this is with an aerial of the current courses.

Craig,

Dan Wexler notes in his books of lost courses that both Boca Raton South and Mill Road Farm Golf Course were considered one of the top courses in the country.  This is corroborated in contemporary newspaper and magazine accounts.  There are a number of other NLE Flynn courses such as Opa Locka, Floranada, and Yorktown CC that, if around today, would add to the consideration and regard for Flynn's design work.

[Craig Disher]

Pat,
I'm certain that Royal Palm YTC doesn't incorporate any of Boca Raton South. The course was completely abandoned for many years and I doubt that any trace of it was left when RPYTC was built. And I doubt the builders had access to Flynn's plans.



The hotel course doesn't have much of Flynn's plan either. However, the routing of some holes is very similar, although on a shrunken piece of land.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()