Sand Hills: A Nit or Not?

[Mike Hendren]

It would seem that C& C had a wonderful opportunity to create an extremely blind hole at Sand Hills along the lines of an alps, dell or punchbowl.  The usual reasons for not doing so - poor drainage and danger/liability - don't seem to apply given the soil and the modest no. of rounds played there.  

Am I nit-picking or not?

Mike

[THuckaby2]

You're nit-picking.  There are some semi-blind shots, so it's not like the concept is absent there, right?  And the main thing is this:  what hole would you replace, to create this Alps, dell or punchbowl?

Methinks they got things right at the best course on the planet.

 

[Scott_Burroughs]

Mike,

Slightly nitty, as I am one who likes blind shots, but there are blind shots to be had at SH.

If you hit a big drive on #16, down by the 250 marker, it is blind to the green.

A drive on the left side of #15 fairway is blind to the green.

Extreme left side of #6 green is blind from tee.

Swale on #10 fairway ~130 yards out is blind to green.

Far right side of #14 fairway is blind to green.

I never ventured down there, but can you see the green from the huge swale on left side #14 ~150 yards out?

Obviously, many shots from the bunkers at SH are blind.

[THuckaby2]

Dave, geez you are on a "being way too literal" roll today.

I also didn't say it was perfect.  No course is.  Imperfection is part of what's great about golf courses.

I did say that it is the best course on the planet.  I do believe this.

And the question isn't about raised greens.  The question is about creation of totally blind shots.

So OK, what hole are you gonna replace to create an Alps, Dell, or punchbowl?  And in the end will this be a net improvement?

I stand ready to learn how you can do this job better than Coore and Crenshaw.

 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

having not had the pleasure of playing sh yet, how does one go about playing there.
Are they as a club fairly open to guests?
Or is it a who you know sort of thing?

[ed_getka]

Scott,
   That swale on the left of #14 fairway leaves a totally blind shot, which is one of the things that makes the hole so great. A really long drive can get down into that swale, so it even helps defend against the really long smashers. Of course, anybody long enough to hit it in there would think it is unfair.

The only hole I would think of trying to do something different with would be #13, since it is basically a longer version of #17 IMO. However, I don't know what I would put there.
   For discussion sake, lets assume we will replace #13, what would you guys do there? The hole wouldn't even have to be a par 3, because you could probably come up with a nice short par 4, without ending up with too long a green to tee walk from #12.
   I am in Tom's camp with SH being one of, if not my favorite course in the world. So far.

[THuckaby2]

Michael:

Sand Hills is an American private club, with the normal rules and regulations associated with that definition.

TH

[THuckaby2]

I think that if you added an Alps along the lines of NGLA, it would be an pretty obvious improvement to the course, with just a couple of exceptions.

OK, and if they gave you $1,000,000 for stepping on the first tee, that would improve things as well.  

That's not the totality of the question.  Unless you're talking about making a 19-hole course, one of the current holes has to go to allow for this Alps.  Then you'd have to consider the routing and flow of the course as well.  So show me the net improvement.

My thinking remains that sure, an Alps would be cool.  But I remain unconvinced that addition of such would be a net improvement, because of what would have to be removed.

So convince me.  You are so badly failing in the other thread, I'm ready to give you a fair and honest shot here.

 

[RJ_Daley]

Pretty much everyone agrees that Sand Hills is among the best of a very small number of great courses.  Why even go there in trying to second guess or imagine what change or changes would make it better?  

Maybe you'd like to see more red clothing because it is your favorite color on the Mona Lisa.  That is just your preferance and it would be wrong to go ahead and even think about such a change in her clothing color.  It is Leonardo's masterpiece and no one gets to or will ever change it.  Why should Ben and Bill's be any different?

If you want alps and blind shots, go build your own sand hills masterpiece.  There is more than enough land left out there for you to have your shot.  

In fact, as we are seeing, a few fellows or groups actually are going to take their own shot at the never ending - never succeeding quest to build their own version of sand hills shangri la and we all wish them well.  But, you know that if it doesn't have a more perfect punch bowl, or redan, or blind drive in a saddle FW, or low profile pitch and run ground level approached green, someone will ask, "why didn't they have that..." (asked in your own favorite whiny voice character like Louie Anderson)

Mike, I vote for nit...

[THuckaby2]

I won the other thread on page one, yet you continue to delude yourself.

And I concur that THE Alps at NGLA is one of the great holes on this planet, and no par 4 at Sand Hills is as great as that hole.  Fine.  Concur.  But again, that's not the point.

The question is this:  HOW are you gonna create a good version of it there at Sand Hills, and not have a net negative?  Are you gonna truck in a mountain and dump it in front of the current #2 green?  Sounds pretty dorky to me.  Of course I also think the current #2 is a fantastic golf hole with one of the world's greatest greens, so you lose me right away if you want to mess with it.

I could make the same arguments about all the other holes you mention - that's the point.

I guess by your logic they should dredge out an ocean, import a bunch of salt water and lengthen #13 by a few yards, because they don't have #16 at Cypress there?

Please.  This is sad.  And I have - or should I say used to have have - such high standards for you.

TH

ps - I am only being such a prick today with you because I am in a giddy mood, as I leave in 1/2 hour to go play Pasatiempo... yahooooooooo

[THuckaby2]

I never said pathetic.  I did say sad.  And the sadness stems from the relatively poor quality of your answer.  Remember, I do have high standards for you.

Tell me how an Alps would work on the site, replacing the holes you mention, all of which are darn fine golf holes as is, btw.  You can't seriously say it would be a net improvement to truck in mountains and artificically create the ridge that makes THE Alps at NGLA work so well... or can you?

As I say, I am ready to be convinced.  But you only have about 20 minutes... after that I am off to play some great holes rather than talk about them.

 

[ed_getka]

Tom,
  Have fun at Pasa. I would much rather be there, than changing diapers on a beautiful day. Do you think it will be squishy from the rain last week?

[THuckaby2]

Ed - we've had a cancellation and there's room for one more... tee time is 1:38... be there!

The squishiness will be interesting to assess.  Man it poured in San Jose two nights ago, and I can only assume it poured worse in the Santa Cruz mountains.  So one would expect a lot of mud... But yet, the Doak boys have done wonders with drainage improvements there in the last few years... it will be interesting to see how the course is today.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

I bet Fazio could do it .

[ed_getka]

Tom,
  You just made my day worse! Work doesn't end until 7pm, unless... THAT'S IT,  food poisoning during my early lunch just might leave me enough time. Have a great time, I 'll be playing the course in my head. Let us know how the drainage is.

[Gene Greco]

Mike:

  #6 is a blind par 3 when the pin is on the left side. How much more quirk can one want? #6 in my opinion is the best par 3 on the course for the variety it offers in all conditions with all possible pins on its giant green.

   Along with its sister hole #10 at Friar's Head and the 8th at The Maidstone where else in America at a top ranked golf course is there such an imaginative, quirky hole along the lines of a Dell?    

[Gene Greco]

nit

[Mike Hendren]

Just as I suspected - a nit.  Uncle.

Mike
The Nit

[ed_getka]

How many times did you "par" it? I'm 0 for 8. I'm not complaining though, I am blessed to have had that many shots at it.

[Gene Greco]

Furthermore:

#1 - layup on par 5 is blind from short right or long left. However, most bombers who hit it long left would go for it in two unless the wind is out of the north and the elevated green is within view.

#3 - "Blind" tee shot. Has anyone ever seen where the ball lands as the way the light reflects off the green and fairway leading up to it "blinds" you.

#4 - blind approach from the extreme right.

#5 - Blind approach from both left and right

#6 - blind to left pin.

#9 - blind tee shot.

#10- blind approach from left to any pin left of center as well as from dead center for the bombers who are just short of the "Alps".

#12 - blind approach from left or right.

#14 - blind from the left after one bombs a tee ball on this par 5.

#15 - blind approach from the left

#16 - blind second on this 612 yd. par 5 from short right or from the bottom of the hill for the bomber who takes the bolder line.

 

[TEPaul]

Dave Schmidt:

You say Sand Hills doesn't have enough holes you can run the ball onto the green. How many holes do you think a great golf course needs to have where one can run the ball onto a green? Do you think there's some formula for the number of holes on a great course that need to be like that? And if you say a particular golf course needs more "alps" type holes do you envision that one can run the ball onto the greens of those "alps" hole greens?

Don't forget, at the ultimate "alps" hole in America, NGLA's #3, I guess it's slightly possible to run the ball onto that green, but if you tried that in firm and fast condtions on that hole you'd probably not end up very well. I hope you recall  there is that blind green fronting bunker on #3 one has to carry. Do you think NGLA's #3 would be a better hole if that green fronting bunker wasn't there, thereby allowing a golfer to run his ball down onto the green from far side of the "Alps"?

[TEPaul]

"And when I say "enough" all I'm saying is "enough, relative to the expectation that you have that you're going to get to hit that shot all the time"."

Dave:

What I say is there're probably far too many on here (and elsewhere) who have too many of their own "expectations" about all the things that some courses or even all courses should be. The most grating one to me was all those on here who were getting on PVGC for not being "ideal" because a golfer can't putt their ball from the first tee to the last green.

What kind of crap is that? It's over-active "expectation" about architecture, particularly the intended architecture of some courses.

I say, go to Sand Hills and just play what's there in the best ways you can and don't go in there for the first time with a whole laundry list of "expectations" about the way its architecture and the playability of it is supposed to be.  

[Andy Hughes]

What I say is there're probably far too many on here (and elsewhere) who have too many of their own "expectations" about all the things that some courses or even all courses should be. The most grating one to me was all those on here who were getting on PVGC for not being "ideal" because a golfer can't putt their ball from the first tee to the last green.
What kind of crap is that? It's over-active "expectation" about architecture, particularly the intended architecture of some courses.

TEPaul,
Well, it's Alistar MacKenzie kinda crap  
I am not commenting on Pine Valley, but I just read a few weeks ago in a Mackenzie-authored book where he said an ideal hole could indeed be played entirely with a putter.  That does not mean it is so, nor does it mean that Mackenzie necessarliy followed his own dictum at all times, but...

[RJ_Daley]

Dave, how many rounds have you played at SH and on how many visits.  I by no means can say I have had more than a few rounds and a few seasons there.  But, I have seen the quirk of weather you are talking about.  Everything from an opening day of 100* to a freezeroo of ~42 and deep wind chilled.  

My advice to you inorder to dispell your ideas that you can't play enough 100-110 yard 4 iron trundling ground balls is to force yourself to do so.  Forget the mindset that you have to carry something to the green.  Next time you play, at least on one of the 18 hole loops that you do play in a day, take 4-5 clubs.  Take a 3W, 4I, 8I, SW, and putter.  Maybe even throw out the 8I.  You are a good player and I think you will craft some sort of running shots along the ground, even upgrade to those greens.  I bet you, you can score within 8 strokes of your average full bag 'o clubs and possibly have more fun doing it...

[T_MacWood]

Sand Hills is a wonderful golf course. The par-5s and the short par-4s standout in my mind. It really has no weakness, eighteen solid golf holes, which may be its weakness. There are no oddball holes that make you scratch your head or just laugh. In contrast to say a course like Tobacco Road, which in contrast may have too many laughs.