The Shadow Creek Experience

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think that most are fogetting, that at the time it opened, Shadow Creek represented a revolution in the golf world, architecturally, site wise and financially.

Shadow Creek deserves its due.

Having played it years ago, and last year, one of my observations is that the massive number of trees originally planted, were almost mature at the time, providing a desired look.  Last year, Shadow Creek reminded me of Pine Valley, in that I felt that the trees were invasive, or confining.

Now I know the esteemed TEPaul will tell you that Crump intended to achieve seperation, but, I'm not so sure he intended to achieve total isolation, vis a vis a wall or forest of trees seperating each hole.

I think the bowling alley effect detracts from the golf course, and that both courses would be better served through significant tree removal.

Again, view Shadow Creek in the context of it's arrival in the golf world.

And, how many courses, desert and elsewhere, can claim Shadow Creek as their prototype.

[THuckaby2]

You said it perfectly - sure it's not the most strategic course in the world, nor does it have much visual deception.  But it's beautiful and challenging and FUN.  Why must golf tastes be mutually exclusive?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this attitude. I just wouldn't expect many to agree, as the site's stated goal is to provide frank commentary of the world's finest courses.

Disagreement is what we do best here....

George - I think you missed my point.  I'm absolutely NOT expecting everyone to agree on anything, nor am I advocating stifling of discussion of architecture in any way.  Not sure how you took that from what I said, but whatever.  What I'm asking is if you like one type of course, does that mean you must dislike all others not like it?  Tommy holds out NGLA, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, etc. and they are all links-like, no trees, traditional style, minimalist, and wonders why Jim can love those AND love Shadow Creek.   So my question was if one likes those, must one necessarily hate Shadow Creek, which is tree-lined, very modern, absolutely artificially created?

Why can't one like both?

And Tommy answered it in the specific re Shadow Creek, giving more reasons why he doesn't like that particular course - which also tells me, unless I am stretching this too far, that this is just about Shadow Creek, not a general statement on courses - fair enough.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Golf Digest did an article on left brain thinking vs right brain thinking in regard to rating courses which I found interesting. If you are left brained, you like a certain course and if you are right brained you like a different course. When I took the evaluation, I was right in the middle (for better or worse). I love golf, I love playing different styles and respect each for what they bring to the table. I also respect the different opinions of different people and that is what makes life more interesting.

[George Pazin]

Huck -

I guess I did miss your point - you seemed to simply be advocating a wider standard for greatness than most. Sorry if I misunderstood. I think just about anyone can have a great time on just about any course, but that doesn't automatically mean a course is great. My home muni will always hold a special place in my heart, and is a course that I love, but not for its stellar architecture.

Regarding Tommy's point, seeing as how he loves PV & Merion, I don't think he has anything against trees per se. I think it is the lack of strategy (in his opinion) that he sees as separating the two classes of courses.

Shadow Creek (and Fazio in general) often brings out the extremes in everyone. I don't recall anyone, even its strongest critics, saying it is a poor course by any stretch, or even a mediocre one. Most simply say it is overrated relative to its merits, seemingly because of the treatment the golfer receives.

I do agree completely with Patrick that Shadow Creek represents an significant milestone in the history of golf course architecture.

[THuckaby2]

George:

OK, that explains it better.

And I guess I might be advocating a wider standard for greatness than others.  I don't see the presence of strategic choices as the be all and end all... so although I disagree with Tommy about their lack at Shadow Creek, well... I just plain don't have ANY absolutes when it comes to greatness of golf courses.  I don't see how one can... Every golf course is going to have more of some attribute than another... some have wonderful strategic choices but less pure challenge... others go the other way... Some are treeless links, others are forested parkland... Some are created, some are found on the land... All CAN be great, for many different reasons.

I guess I would agree that the more strategic choices a golf course offers, the better chance it has to be truly great.

I just wouldn't agree that a course with less strategic courses ABSOLUTELY CANNOT be great, as I thought Tommy was saying...

So OK, if this makes me at odds with most in here, well... I can surely live with it.  It won't be the first time.  

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Jim F:

How much of your evaluation of Shadow Creek is about the "experience" (I define that as the exclusive nature of the club and how it came into being along with the out-of-the-world servicing that comes with being there) versus the nature and quality of the holes?

My point Jim is that other TF design courses -- some of which you mentioned -- are simply better overall golf courses. They are not tied to the genesis of Shadow Creek which really is more of an engineering / landscaping enterprise than fundamentally superb golf holes.

Jim -- Shadow Creek certainly should get plaudits for how it came into being -- but the fore element is not the discussion on the how and why it got built but what ultimately was PRODUCED.

Frankly, I see a few other TF designs that are clear cuts above SC --

Dallas National
Karsten Creek
Black Diamond / Quarry
Glen Wild
Galloway National

Each of the aformentioned do not have a grandiose story on how they were built but the totality of what is there with each is truly the best of the likes I have seen TF produce.

I would also mention a few others of note like Victoria National, Pinehurst #8 and Forest Creek that are also well done layouts and worthy of visits by raters. With some additional time to think about it I can likely name a few other TF courses worthy of serious attention.

George P said,

"... Shadow Creek represents an significant milestone in the history of golf course architecture."

George -- help me out with something -- please define golf course architecture for me because Shadow Creek doesn't have the kind of unique or edge-of-your-seat holes that stay in one's memory for more than few hours at best.

What milestone are we talking about? I don't doubt plunking down $35+ million for a layout in the middle of nowhere takes balls but what aspects of the design are going beyond the formulistic stuff that unfortunately lies at the heart of much of what TF has done -- certainly among the 50-55 I have personally played -- including two rounds at Shadow Creek.

Hell, I'd much rather play something in a more panoramic setting and with some unique and funky holes like Wolf Creek at Paradise Canyon in Mesquite.

George -- it would help me understand your bold statement in knowing what other TF courses of distinction you have played and how you would assess them versus Shadow Creek. As I asked Jim F -- where would you place SC among all the courses you have played in the States?

Shadow Creek is a milestone in man's audacity to impose his will on Mother Nature. I don't doubt that the course is well done in spots architecturally but it's major leap off the cliff to include the course among the top 25-50 courses in the USA. Frankly, I would have to really find a reason to include it among my personal top 100 in the States.

Tommy N:

Shady Canyon is on my list to play in a future visit to SoCal. Do yourself a favor and try to play a few of the other top TF courses I and others have named. You may find that the anti-Christ is not the ultimate demon you think him to be. I have faith that maybe you might see it from a different fixed perspective. Even Nixon changed his mind on the USSR and China!

[George Pazin]

Shadow Creek is a milestone in man's audacity to impose his will on Mother Nature.

Matt -

I probably would've sugar coated it a bit more, but this is pretty close to what I meant. There's good milestones and bad milestones in the history of GCA.

[Matt_Ward]

George P:

Then help me out -- what type of milestone is SC -- good or bad or where?

If you have played the course where would you rate the course versus others you have played in the states? If you have played other TF courses of note how would you compare / contrast SC to one another?

Many thanks ...

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