working with the land & discovering golf holes

[Forrest Richardson]

Tony -- "...writing is liking pulling teeth without anesthesia..." I know this full well. I would add to it, though "...writing is liking pulling teeth without anesthesia and also having to do the pulling yourself with rusty implements."

[Forrest Richardson]

Brian -- I do not believe the ASGCA has any "policy" regarding fees. It's clearly up to members. The percentage "calculation" is one way fees -- all fees of all consultants -- can sometimes be estimated when a project is somewhat standard in terms of its infrastructure and complexity. But, of course, not always. I usually get into trouble when I try and figure things this way. In fact, I recently said to a group on a remodel that I thought the fees -- GCA, engineer, irrigation designer, etc. -- would be "about 10% of what they would end up spending on the work". I was off a few percentage points as the work was very complicated and our dear engineer and irrigation consultant came in well above my guesses. This provate club was not impressed and I had to re-state my words "estimate...", "about...", etc. I am still alive, so it all worked out.

We do not figure fees based on a percentage, and I doubt many other GCAs or ASGCA members do either. I think this is a calculaion still regarded in engineering and some builoding architecture fields. I know several landscape architects and I don't think it is how they do business any longer.

I prefer, really, to just quote $1 million and slightly extra if we need to use our corporate jet.

[Tony Ristola]

Forrest:  Look forward to your book...and stand corrected.  "rusty implements" indeed.

Brian:  In Germany, the "name" guys advertise (through articles written by others in publications) that their fee is 10 to 12% of the construction costs.

Doesn't this lead to waste?  Is there any desire to drive down costs? Does this reflect the "higher" standards they claim?  Can it ever lead to "higher" standards?

Not in my eyes...it's a recipe for waste.

[Forrest Richardson]

There is also the element of TRYING to discover golf holes.

At The Hideout we kept returning to the property to resolve issues from Hole Nos. 6 through 8. There was a wide meadow which could easily accommodate any number of good holes in almost any direction -- a beautiful grazed area with a creek running alongside. In the deep snow during winter of 2000 I returned with Mike Hopkins, my assistant, and we decided to alter the No. 6 and Nos. 8 holes for the better. This left a missing link, so to speak, namely: Hole No. 7. Fortunately No. 7 would be a par-3 and we calculated correctly that we would be able to discover it somewhere. At one point I lost Mike as his damn radio dropped into a drift of snow and I finally resorted to yelling through the thick brush. We did not have GPS with us, but managed to move some points and find our approximate location on the topo map. What results is a sporty little par-3 up the hill to a green which sits on a terrace about 35-feet above the creek. It is not my favorite hole, but it accommodated two wonderful and unique holes before and after.

This was a do-or-die situation in term. Without being able to find No. 7 we were blocked from Nos. 6 and 8. A domino effect is evident when you cannot find these missing links. fairly soon one can see why some routings go to pieces and fall apart. You can often locate the source of the problem -- a corner, a wetlands, a road, some choice lots at the expense of golf, or perhaps it's just inattention: something was not looked at to the degree it should have been.

[Tom Doak]

In regard to fees, I believe there are some architects in the States who charge a percentage of the work for reconstruction and consulting projects, but I haven't heard of anyone lately taking their fee for a new course on a percentage basis.  The conflict of interest is pretty obvious.

Certainly, however, an architect with a million-dollar fee would have a hard time justifying it on a project with a $3 million construction budget, so it's not entirely coincidence that their projects tend to have budgets of $5 million to $10 million or more.

On the other hand, back in the day, Alister MacKenzie frequently charged clients for construction supervision on a percentage-of-cost basis.  At the end of the day, it all comes down to the integrity of the individual.

[Forrest Richardson]

Of course, Tom, it would be really satisfying to be able to charge a $1 million fee for a $3 million course and not be critized for it. Thankfully money isn't everything to everyone.