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Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2004, 11:34:12 PM »
Tripp, I hope you get more work in the area.  I think you have a good feel for creating both challenge and playablity.  I must mention that you made #6 a much better green than the original (original #6 was simply a back to front ski slope fronted on the left by a deep bunker).  What's wrong with improving upon the original?  Royal Melbourne has a few new bunkers built within the past couple of years that would be impossible to differentiate from the originals.  I think #6 is improved.

T_MacWood

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2004, 06:18:53 AM »
Robert
Would you suggest Tripp rebuild the greens at Royal Melbourne?

Frank Duane may have planted the first fairway bunkers on #7, but he is not responsible for the current stylized look of those bunkers. That work is  relatively recent and out of character.

The current #3 replaced the most famous hole on the entire course, and one of the most famous holes in golf. It is out of character and necessitated changes to the current 4th (old 3rd) which were not for the better IMO.

The problem with improving courses like Engineers, is that often they aren't improved and in the process a significant design is destroyed. IMO Herbert Strong was one of the great architects of the 20th C., Engineers was likely his greatest accomplishment. With all due respect to Tripp, I'm concerned when all is done we will have a Tripp Davis design, which may not be bad thing on its face, but not when its sitting on top of a masterpiece.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2004, 06:44:36 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tripp_Davis

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2004, 07:59:45 AM »
Tom,

It is obvious you do not know me or have any respect for me.  I am not suggesting I am trying to do what Herbert Strong would do if he were here today.  I am asking you would Strong want his worked to be restored, redesigned, renovated, rebuilt, without having a strategic impact on today's game.  He was a player and Engineers was built to be a championship test.  You are out of your freaking mind if you think Strong would want something done to his work that would not present strong strategy.  Are you suggesting we "restore" Engineers to its exact form and then put it in a freaking museum.  You are also suggesting I have destroyed the greens at Engineers we have done.  Do you even know what we did and what we are doing.  Do not be critical of the actual work golf architects who post on here from an ideological point of view when you do not have a complete knowledge of what is being done.  You will find fewer and fewer contributing to the generally interesting subject matter here.  

The definition of restoration is not a black and white one.  If you rebuild something so that it can be experienced in a like manner as to when it was first built ( a house, a car, a golf course), what do you call that?  Why don't you start sending emails to those guys on "This Old House" and give them crap for the overuse of the word restoration.  

I have studied the history of golf and golf architecture for 25 years.  I have played or walked almost every historically significant golf course in the United States, Canada, England, Scotland and Ireland.  I have a deep love and respect for the older golf courses and I want the work we to reflect the original style of the golf architect as best we can with the information we have.  I have a staff assistant who does nothing but research.

Tom,  If you live near NYC, why don't you get off the sideline and come see me at Enigneers.  I am there almost everyday work is being performed this fall - going home to Oklahom only on Saturdays and Sundays to coach my little girls in soccer (who I am missing so much right now it hurts).  I care about my work and I care about our profession.  I am very interesting in solid discussion about golf architecture and I want to learn all I can.  Call the club, they can tell you how to get in touch with me.

T_MacWood

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2004, 09:25:13 AM »
Tripp
You shouldn't enterpret my questions and concerns with not having respect for you personally. I wasn't trying to insult you personally.I don't know you and I have no reason not to respect you.

I do have tremendous respect for Strong, and I do question some of your redesign ideas. Perhaps my concerns are unwarranted, and you have sound explanations that will clarify the situation. You may have a much better grasp of the course's architectural history, than I and better understanding of Strong's portfolio and philosophies, than I do. I'm willing to absorb anything you can share...I'm sure we would all benefit. I have no immediate plans of visiting NY.

I've seen your plan for the 1st hole, including the new fairway bunkering. What was your thought there? The new fairway bunkers don't appear to have any relationship to Strong's original design.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2004, 10:46:06 AM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2004, 12:24:22 AM »
For the sake of comparison here is an article that shows Tripp's plan for the first hole at Engineers and an old photo of the hole as it appeared after the 1919 PGA and prior to the US Am.

http://www.tdagolfarchitecture.com/images/C&P.pdf



The first green is surrounded by bunkers, the first tee is near the unusual club house (the pointed tower) in the distance. Strong chose to lighten up on the fairway bunkers, emphasizing the rolling terrain and difficult green complexes. Tripp appears to favor a penal approach--pinching the fairway landing area.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2004, 12:25:48 AM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2004, 12:30:20 AM »
When you can see green contours from an old grainy aerial you know you are dealing with something out of the ordinary--also note the size of the green.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2004, 12:31:27 AM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2004, 10:14:42 AM »
The caption on that drawing of the 1st hole reads, "the original design is being restored to accommodate today's game". This is a contradictory statement.

I've actually seen this type of statement used elsewhere, in cases where the term "restoration" was used to sell a revamp of a golf course that was clearly renovated, not restored.  

I think I already asked this question above, Tripp. Nonetheless, do you consider your work at Engineers restorative-based? Or is it a renovation? (Your plan for the first hole seems to suggest renovation.) Either way, it's your deal with the club. I just want to get the terminology correct.  
jeffmingay.com

TEPaul

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2004, 11:22:16 AM »
Jeff and Tom MacWood:

Tripp Davis has done a good job of trying to explain how what he's attempting to do at Engineers is to "restore" as best as possible the way the golf course once played as designed by Herbert Strong---eg things such as original "shot values" and such.

All of us know and understand how much the game and the performance abilities of most players have changed between Strong's time and today--probably the most salient factor being massive differences in distance the ball travels today vs Strong's time.

If Tripp Davis was to "restore" the course EXACLTY to the way it once was in the sense of the placement and distances of all the course's original architetural features what do you suppose that would do to the original "intent" and "shot values" of how the course was originally intended to be played by golfers?

Would you at least settle for a restoration of the way the course was originally intended to be played but with the replaced features simply looking far more like what they once did?

If you're only going to say that the real issue is that the ball and golf's equipment should be rolled back to the way it was in Strong's time, that's a vastly different issue and I'm sure you must know that.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2004, 11:29:08 AM »
I think Tripp put things in proper perspective--it is not a museum, but a great course.  Modern real estate issues makes it impossible to hit accross the road  on #2 and there are places where the tees already are up against neighbors fences.  This course was a premier championship golf course (a tern much overused today) and there is an opportunity to make the course tournament friendly given modern equipment and playing ability.  A simple redo of the bunkers and return to the original routing would result in 8 sand wedges into the par 4's, 2 reachable par 5's, and a sand wedge into a par 3.  The current routing creates a tough an I think very Strong like green on #3 of 220 yards, and a very strategic par 5 with a good bogey opportunity for a terrible attempt at the green on the second shot.  The new bunker complex on the right looks very good and the stupid tree that blocked an attempt at the green is gone.  The fairway is no longer pinched with room to the left away from the green.                                I was out on the course yesterday and think that the left pins on #2 will once again be playable (it had been too severe for pins in spite of a beautiful shape).  I really like the new bunkers on the right of 15 that replace a bunch of nursery type trees and the bunkers between #2 and #15 will look like they were always there.  There is plenty of room in the front of #1 for some really cool pins.                                         Tripp, are you going to be out at Engineers this week?  I might be able to make it out (since I drive by there every day) and would love to meet you.

Paul_Turner

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Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2004, 11:43:21 AM »
Changing green contours because a club wants its greens too fast is the daftest waste of money.  Thank goodness the courses in GB&I appear to be immune to this trend.

Much like a historic building, some historic courses deserve to be preserved.  Particularly if the bulk of that course has stood the test of time for decades.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2004, 11:44:43 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tripp_Davis

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2004, 01:22:46 PM »
Tom,

I am sorry for getting testy.  Do you, or did you, travel for a living?  If you did or do, you know that spending five days a week on the road for five weeks straight will drive you a little crazy.  

My interest in this web site is to learn.  I do not feel obligated to "defend" my work, but discussion about what we are doing, or have done, can help me learn.  My point to you is that you should not go on the attack.  Ask questions instead of making statements without complete knowledge.  Develop an ideology that is consistent, and executable (how - not just what).  Question statements a golf architect makes, but comments such as "would you suggest Tripp rebuild the greens at Melbourne" might be taken wrong.  I have learned a great deal about Engineers from this web site and it is showing in the work we are doing.

Here is what we know about Strong (relative to his architecture):  1.  He was a player; 2.  He tended to design courses with championship golf in mind (at least at Engineers, Inwood, Canterbury); 3.  He used bold countours in his greens (often with the emphasis on countours that allowed a crafty player to "lead" his ball towards pin locations) and often bunkered his greens heavily; 4.  His bunkering style was not definitive to the point one could identify a "Strong" style - he built bunkers with grass faces, bunkers with sand faces, he built bunkers with little shape (bascially rectangles) and built irregular shaped bunkers (sometimes with what we call "noses" today), he used what appears to be "turf" type grasses to surround his bunkers and he often set his bunkers in more native looking grasses or instructed that they be unkept.  He even used bunch grasses in his bunkers.  The one thing we do notice is that there was not pattern as to where he used a certain style - although you could suggest that turf faces were more prevelant facing greens, the fairway bunkers tended to be more unkept and he tended to use more regular shapes than not.  He did seem to use a prominent feature (wildly unkept mound) in the middle of bunkers on #1 and #2.

Relative to what we know about Strong, here is what we are doing at Engineers:  1.  He was a player - we are taking from this that Strong would want any work done to still present strategic interest;  2.  He tended to design championship golf courses - we are taking from this that the course should be a challenge (with what we are doing this is mostly accomplished with the addition of some length (#2, #5, #15 this year and reintroducing fairway bunkers where they were lost and adding a few (on #4 we are adding fairway bunkering for the "new" 4th hole that is mostly played now over the old 3rd)) - although current membership issues suggest that we also provide options for the average player (we are doing this mostly be expanding fairway, enlarging greens #1 will be a good bit more playable after we expand the green to the front and left), and doing things such as taking out the front bunker on #1 that was not originally there - which makes it impossible for the average player to get to a back left pin) especially in light of the fact that Engineers could never again be long enough to host a modern major (although it could very well serve as a companion course for a US Am - it is every bit as good, much more of a challenge in my mind, as the Pittsburgh Field Club where we played as the second course to Oakmont at the US Am last year).  3.  He used bold countours in his greens (often with the emphasis on countours that allowed a crafty player to "lead" his ball towards pin locations) and often bunkered his greens heavily - The only thing we are doing this year is to rebuild the left side of #2 green, back to the way it was before a redesign in 1999.  This work will allow players to again use slopes to feed a ball to the right side pins with more control and it recaptures three pins that 1999 work eliminated, pins that were very interesting.  It also opens up more shot making when playing to left side pins.  We understand from talking to members that our 4-5% slopes in what we are making pinnable are probably a little softer than what was there pre 1999, but the greens are also a good foot faster today than just five years ago.  As far as green side bunkers, we are mostly restoring ones that were filled in, with the exception of taking out a "new" bunker on the front left of #1.  4.  His bunkering style was not definitive to the point one could identify a "Strong" style - he built bunkers with grass faces, bunkers with sand faces, he built bunkers with little shape (bascially rectangles) and built irregular shaped bunkers (sometimes with what we call "noses" today), he used what appears to be "turf" type grasses to surround his bunkers and he often set his bunkers in more native looking grasses or instructed that they be unkept.  He even used bunch grasses in his bunkers.  The one thing we do notice is that there was not pattern as to where he used a certain style - although you could suggest that turf faces were more prevelant facing greens, the fairway bunkers tended to be more unkept and he tended to use more regular shapes than not.  He did seem to use a prominent feature (wildly unkept mound) in the middle of bunkers on #1 and #2. - Relative to style, we are implementing large fairway bunker complexes on #1 and #2 with native grasses on the faces and in the interior areas of the complex.  We are using a combination of regular shaped bunkers and irregular shapes and on both #1 and #2 a prominent, irregular, mound will be a focus in the middle of a large bunker.  While Strong would have bunch grasses growing in the bunker, we are doing this more by way of creating very small "islands" in the bunkers that will not be irrigatted or maintained - more sustainable under the soil conditions and expected maintenance standards.  Around the greens the style will be predominantly regular in shape with exception of the far left bunker on #1.  

Is this restoration?  Of the orginal intent, yes.  Of what exactly was there, no.  How often does it make sense to restore exactly what was there?  Tom Doak has had the good fortune to work with a few clubs that would apply where there was a membership that wanted the course to be taken back and wanted it to look like it was 100 years old.  

If the definition of restoration is taken to the extreme, than introducing a new strain of grass, irrigation, new mowers, modern fertilizers, and even letting players play with modern equipment is something different having a restored golf course.  I personally don't care what the work we are doing is called.  I refer to it often as the restoration of the original design intent.  That is different from what some have done to our older courses where style and original strategy were not even taken into consideration.  We have done three projects in New York this fall - Whippoorwill where we built bunkers in the style of Charles Banks - we are doing work at Fresh Meadow where we are building bunkers in the style that Colt and Allison - and the work at Engineers.  Three totally different styles that we are paying respect to in each project.  

T_MacWood

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2004, 01:43:57 PM »
TE
"....he's attempting to do at Engineers is to "restore" as best as possible the way the golf course once played as designed by Herbert Strong"

It sounds good, but do his ideas match your understanding of Strong's original design? Planting new bunkers where Strong had none (his plan for the first hole for example) is a case of a restoration architect creating his own completely new shot values IMO.

Robert
The tee across the road on #2 was rarely used. The hole played as par-4 for the PGA and the US Amateur. It was a relatively weak par-5 when played across the road, as opposed to a challenging par-4 where the tee is today.

You are correct, Engineers was a premeir championship test in its hey day. For the 1919 PGA and 1920 US Am the course played to a total yardage of a little over 6300 yards (par70), Oakmont played to 6700 for the 1919 US Am, and championship venues at the time averaged between 6600 and 6800 yards. Strong's Engineers was a different animal. A brilliant and unique design--then and now if allowed to return.  

Are Somerset Hills, Fishers Island and Maidstone museum pieces? The question is would you rather have a internationally respected and historically important work of golf architecture that is entertaining and stimulating for the membership or a golf course that can hold the Metropolitan Open every twenty-five years?

Tripp_Davis

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2004, 05:23:40 PM »
Tom,

From your perspective, what was the idea of Strong's original design for bunkers between #1/#18 and #2/#15?  Not just placement and their visual nature, but strategic value as well.  Then and now.

How do you think modern irrigation and the current soil types that exist in those areas effect maintaining bunkers in the style they were found in 1919?  

TEPaul

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2004, 05:40:29 PM »
"It sounds good, but do his ideas match your understanding of Strong's original design? Planting new bunkers where Strong had none (his plan for the first hole for example) is a case of a restoration architect creating his own completely new shot values IMO."

Tom MacWood:

I have no understanding of Strong's original design intent at Engineers. I grew up perhaps five miles from the place but I don't believe I ever saw it. What exactly is your understanding of Strong's "original design intent" at Engineers and how have you come to know what it was?

My question to you in my last post is a legitimate question, and it's one you really haven't bothered to answer.

Your remarks about preserving what you consider masterpieces sound good too in a purist fashion but there are issues of how golf is played today that many feel need to be addressed. I understand how you feel about architectural preservation but those are issues you need to address, in my opinion, if you want to be realistic today.

Tripp_Davis

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2004, 05:46:15 PM »
Robert,

I will be there Monday and Tuesday this week.  I will be there Monday through Friday the following week.  Get in touch with me at trippd@sbcglobal.net.


T_MacWood

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2004, 07:27:04 PM »
Tripp
It appears a major theme of your redesign is the introduction (or reintroduction) of dramatic fairway bunkers to test the modern player and to recapture Strong’s original intent. Based upon the information I have seen, those bunkers on #2 and #15 you are moving and/or recreating are not Herbert Strong’s.

If anything, at Engineers, Strong chose to use very few fairway bunkers—on a number of holes there were no fairway bunkers, including the first and eighteenth holes (I’m still unclear why your plan for #1 calls for five bunkers pinching the landing area). Strong chose to emphasize the rugged terrain in combination with his boldly contoured (well-bunkered) greens. The fairways were quite generous with few bunkers, but the tee shot had to be placed properly or the approach was extremely difficult due to his orientation of the greens. If you are interested in recapturing Strong’s original intent adding bunkers where none existed does not seem appropriate.

On a previous post you mentioned multiple bunkers among the hillocks as a Strong design trait. I’ve studied his designs, and as far as I can tell, that is not characteristic of his work. You will often find bold bunkering (especially greenside) on many of his courses, but not the multiple bunkers you describe (the string of pearls on #16 being the exception, as you know those bunkers protect sliced balls from tumbling into the ravine).

In my opinion when it comes to modifying a significant design to address the modern game, you must weigh the significance of the design against the benefits of any proposed modernization. In the case of Engineers the significance of the design far outweigh any potential benefit from a modernization plan—as you stated one potential benefit being a secondary US Am site. In its hey day Engineers was mentioned in the same breath as Pine Valley, Oakmont, Garden City, and the National. There aren’t too many golf architects who would suggest making significant design changes those golf courses...other than moving some tees and cutting down trees.

One of the realities of the game’s evolution is an old course like Engineers must reevaluate its place in the game. Engineers was once a major championship venue, that is not possible today, but there is no reason why it should not retain its place as a world class design…not unlike Somerset Hills, Fishers Island or Maidstone. If the golf course was accurately restored it might kill their small chance as a secondary-host of a US Am (like Pitt Field C…they’d probably more likely to catch the eye of the Curtis Cup or a similar event), but I’m confident it would take its place with those three museum pieces among the top courses in the country (and a destination for architectural aficionados). Most importantly it would still provide a test for the majority of golfers (the greens were the linch pin of the design in 1920 and they continue to be the dominant factor). And present a fun and stimulating test for its members.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2004, 07:30:34 PM by Tom MacWood »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2004, 07:59:44 PM »
Tripp,
This has been an excellent thread to follow.
It's wonderful that you have been so open in discussing your plans and ideas. This can be a tough crowd. I hope you'll continue to share as you start work at Whipporwill and Fresh Meadow.
 
Tom MacWood,
What would you do if you were put in Tripp's shoes? Do you think that there have been any successful restorations that include some "modernization"?

Robert,
I'm know that you share Tom MacWood's passion in preserving this gem. It's no doubt a difficult duty to preserve Strong's work and have the course function with today's conditions. I would hope that when there is a trade off Tripp will error on the side of preservation vs. renovation. I'll be awaiting your report after visiting with Tripp this week.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2004, 08:01:02 PM by Shooter »

T_MacWood

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2004, 11:08:14 PM »
I'm not in Tripp's shoes, so I can't really say. I don't know what in his  pitch the membership found attractive, considerations that may color his plan. I have no idea politically what the club desires.

From an architectural point of view, I'd restore Strong's design--including the old 14th and 3rd. I'd reinstitute his unusual layout of one par-5, three par-3's and relatively large number of drive & pitch par-4's (it was unique in 1920, it would be unique today which isn't bad thing in my view). I'd remove trees that encroach on the design and the panaramas. I'd restore Strong's plan of minimal bunkering off the tee combined with his bold greenside bunkers and severely contoured greens (mostly large). I'm sure they've already gotten every inch out of the course.

Regarding modernization, it depends on your defintion. I'm all for moving tees, when appropriate, to adjust for technology. Moving bunkers I am not crazy about, IMO in most cases that is a mistake. I agree with Paul Turner recontouring interesting greens to attain a certain greenspeed is a waste.

JakaB

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2004, 04:09:51 PM »
I brought this up for Jason....God I love MacWood...

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2004, 07:13:11 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Didn't Tripp Davis say that the original plans/photos burned in a clubhouse fire.

If that is correct, how would you know exactly how to restore Strong's work, or would that be an interpretive, architect sensitive restoration on your part ?

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2004, 08:18:18 PM »
Pat -
Have you checked out Ran's Course Review of Engineers?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2004, 11:52:03 PM »
SPDB,
Pat -
Have you checked out Ran's Course Review of Engineers?

YES.

Have you checked out the discussion between Tripp, Robert and Tom ?

My question stands.
[/color]

blasbe1

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2004, 12:51:52 AM »
I brought this up for Jason....God I love MacWood...
Dude . . . bring it on!!

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2004, 01:26:43 AM »
Before heading out to Calif.  I took a look at the work Tripp has done and would recommend him to anyone.  Unfortunately, we were not able to get together, but my buddy at Whipporwill ( who is well educated on golf course architecture) has the highest regards for Tripp.  I really think Engineers is being examined inside an ivory tower by a few people.  Engineers has a membership to satisfy--the golf world should feel very fortunate that the club did not go for a Reesification or worse yet the Mickey Mouse ear bunkers that now marr Nassau!  Tripp's work is not a lesser evil--it is really, really good.  The day before leaving, I ran into Ed Gibstein (serious amateur resume, member, architecture fan) at the gym, he is very enthusiastic about the way the golf course is shaping up.  Ed Gibstein is very much responsible for the ongoing tree removal--I am certain that it was over a few members dead bodies! The most important factor--is it a great course to play?  Yes!  There have been changes, but the changes are enhancing the course.

T_MacWood

Re:The Wrath of Herbert Strong
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2004, 06:51:06 AM »
Pat
You are correct Tripp said all the plans were destroyed in the fire. As far as photos are concerned, Engineers was one of the most famous courses of its day...it hosted two major championships in its first three or four years of existance...there are plenty of old pictures (a number of them are currently hanging in the current clubhouse). As Ron Forse pointed out in the recent article in SuperNews, old photos are the No.1 Tool for restoration, "plans on paper did not always translate into how the course was actually built."

Robert
I'm glad you like Tripp's work, personally I'm partial to Strong's original work which was one of the landmark designs in golf architecture. I'm sure Tripp is a talented guy, I would just would prefer he not exhibit that talent on top of Strong's genius. He appears to be confused about the bunkers between ther 2nd and 15th...that is concerning, to me anyway.

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