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TEPaul

When "Art Principles" met golf design
« on: October 24, 2004, 11:00:14 AM »
I think it's so interesting to go all the way back to the beginning, perhaps the late 1850s, to see both what happened and why when man-made architectural features first began to mix with wholly natural landforms that’d been used for centuries in “early” golf.

At first it seems only rudimentary techniques were used to support natural features and landforms from erosion by wind or water---such things as crude boards or logs supporting natural bunker sides and such from collapsing or eroding.

Eventually, man-made means were used on land outside the natural linkslands to make some sense for the game only perhaps without that much thought to long lasting structural integrity and probably much less thought to how those man-made features actually mimicked the look of natural forms and Nature itself. Through the remainder of the 19th century this was the era of very rudimentary or geometric architecture.

Why did early architecture evolve into startingly geometric forms? According to a golf architecture philosopher such as Max Behr simply because it’s natural to man to make order (what he feels is necessary for the playing of the GAME of golf) out of what he perceives as disorder (raw natural landforms) and that apparently man feels it necessary, at first, to use exactness—eg geometry—to achieve this purpose.

It’s even more interesting that within perhaps 20-50 years after the wholesale application of rudimentary and geometric features of man-made architecture in golf a virtual revolt began in golf architecture to return as much as possible to the look and feel of truly natural looking forms in man-made architecture. All kinds of interesting theories evolved from this direction---probably the most interesting being the real reasons for Mackenzie’s ideas on the principles of camouflage (military camouflage) in golf architecture.

Somewhere in this early era (1900-the early 1920s) the idea of using “Art Principles” entered the business of building golf architecture. Clearly, early golfers and those who built golf courses had come to realize the essential of somehow preserving the look and feel of Nature itself in golf and its playing fields---as it once had to be in the linkslands. Why did that happen?

It may very well have been the obviousness reflected by this remark by Max Behr;

“Indeed the veriest tyro is unconsciously aware that golf is a contest with Nature. Thus, where he meets her unadorned, unblemished by the hand of man, he meets her without criticism. May we not say, then, that in the degree the golfer is conscious of design, in that degree is the architecture faulty according to the highest tenets of the art?”

What “art” is Behr actually speaking of? Most likely the sufficiently developed art of landscape architecture. And what are the tenets or principles of the art of landscape architecture? According to Cornish and Whitten they’re broadly Harmony, Proportion,  Balance, Rhythm and Emphasis!

I’m not that knowledgeable on landscape architecture but I can’t imagine I’d have much to quibble about with the application of the first four of those tenets or principles in golf course architecture. But it may be the last one, Emphasis, I have some issue with. What is the function of Emphasis in landscape architecture as it applied to golf course design? According to Cornish and Whitten it’s ‘The eye is carried first to the most important part of the arrangement and then to other details’.

The most important part of the arrangement? What could that be? Probably where you’re expected to hit the golf ball. On the other hand, it could mean, in some cases, the eye is carried first to that part of the arrangement where you should NOT hit the golf ball. In either case, the degree to which this becomes formulaic in golf design is the degree to which the golfer becomes dictated to by the architect as to where he should go, or even must go.

Personally, I don’t think that’s a good thing in golf or golf architecture but I recognize I may be the only one, at least that I know of, who feels that way. I think the architect should try to deceive the golfer or at least not shrink from the possibility of deceiving him, just as Nature itself tends to unintentionally deceive him constantly. Only then can a golfer feel the satisfaction of where he stands in his mental and physical contest with Nature that so many say should always remain an essential ingredient in the sport of golf!

As useful examples, using PVGC’s holes as examples, does the tee shots of the 1st, 4th, 6th, the second shot of the 7th, the tee shots of #8 and #9, #13, #16, the old dual fairways of #17, and the second shots on #1 (some), #2, #12 (some), #17, #18 really show you the way? I don’t think so---you pretty much have to imagine them on the first playing and pretty much feel them after that.

I love golf holes when a first time golfer has to ask; “Where do I go?” or even “Where’s the green?” Not that all holes have to be like that—just more of them. I say, in the future, golf architecture should strive to do more de-emphasizing of the landscape architect principle of “Emphasis” of leading the golfer’s eye to the most important part of the arrangement. That certainly is not the way of Nature, certainly not always.

I recognize that there’s a strong contingent that says in public golf there should be no deception because golfers may only play the course one time. That’s fine then---in public golf the architect should then lead the golfer around the course with formulaic obviousness if public golfers feel so strongly that way. But for the rest, make it more interesting than that---make them find their own individual ways born of increasing experiences with a golf course.

Perhaps both types---the type that’s completely obvious, and the type that isn’t, could even be called “The Big World Theory” of golf course design! In other words, there’re necessarily huge differences in golf courses and their architecture---since there should be  something out there for everyone!   ;)

T_MacWood

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2004, 12:20:56 PM »
In my humble opinion the most artistically astute golf architect was Tom Simpson. Afterall he was an artist (the only golf architectect, that I'm aware of, that was an artist).

There wasn't any aspect of golf design that was not affected by his artistic sense--from his minimalist theory of strategy to his view of the role of craftsmen, and the importance of artistic lisence, in construtcing his designs.

TEPaul

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2004, 01:17:51 PM »
"Golf architecture is not an art of representation; it is, essentially, an art of interpretation. And an interpretative art allows freedom to fancy only through obedience to the law which dominates its medium, a law that lies outside ourselves. The medium of the artist is paint, and he becomes its master; but the medium of the golf architect is the surface of the earth over which the forces of Nature alone are master."
Max Behr, 1927

and then, somewhat out of context, but in the same article;

"But the revelation that lies in the mists ahead is form that reveals true beauty. This will be acheived only when the features we must create are considered, not solely as ends in themselves, but as means of expressing authentic landscape form. It is structural integrity that we are seeking."
Max Behr, 1927

All that is definitely understandable enough but I've never been particularly certain what specific distinctions Behr is trying to make by saying; "Golf archtiecture is not an art of representation; it is, essentially, an art of interpretation."

Anyone want to take a stab at what that distinction may be?

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2004, 02:33:04 PM »
Tom,
Representational art makes the "subject" recognizable to the viewer. I think he was suggesting that if an architect took this approach with the landscape, i.e., making his work recognizable to the player, he could not make it "express authenticity" and it would lose its "structural integrity". I think it follows then that the architect would open himself up to more criticism, another Behrism.      
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2004, 03:55:31 PM »
"....he could not make it "express authenticity" and it would lose its "structural integrity".

JimK:

Huh?

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2004, 04:25:42 PM »
Tom,
Just using, or slightly paraphrasing, Behr's own words.....

Quote
..... but as means of expressing authentic landscape form. It is structural integrity that we are seeking."
Max Behr, 1927

 

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2004, 04:50:31 PM »
JimK:

Behr's prescription for structural integrity in man-made golf architecture was to basically mimic those forms of natural ground that are strongest and most enduring. He believed the strongest forms were basically convex and he suggested those be used or used to protect concave forms (from the effects of erosion from water). That was probably what he meant by expressing authenticity of landscape form for the purpose of seeking structural integrity.

But how is that interpretative art rather than representative art? What if the architect simply represented those same landscape forms with structural integrity in what he created? In other words, what's the difference or distinction between intrepretative and representative in art or otherwise?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2004, 04:52:09 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

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Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2004, 08:37:46 PM »
i would love to sit down with behr for a few hours and then a few hours more with something to drink cause he is not right and i suspect he knew it.........probably making up stuff in words to compensate for his lack of talent with his peers , hoping to get noticed and accepted.
  ......its scrutiny in the dirt that matters.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Adam_F_Collins

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2004, 09:58:48 PM »
"Golf architecture is not an art of representation; it is, essentially, an art of interpretation. And an interpretative art allows freedom to fancy only through obedience to the law which dominates its medium, a law that lies outside ourselves. The medium of the artist is paint, and he becomes its master; but the medium of the golf architect is the surface of the earth over which the forces of Nature alone are master."
Max Behr, 1927

All that is definitely understandable enough but I've never been particularly certain what specific distinctions Behr is trying to make by saying; "Golf archtiecture is not an art of representation; it is, essentially, an art of interpretation."

Anyone want to take a stab at what that distinction may be?

Tom,

I don't know much about Behr's writing's about golf, but from what you've offered here, it seems to me that he's suggesting that golf course architecture is more about somehow deciphering the puzzle of what the land holds than about imposing a preconception of how one thinks it ought to be. One has to be able to read how nature has worked a piece of land in order to project how it will continue to influence the course you've built there after you're gone.

Building a golf course is only the very beginning of an ongoing evolution, and if a piece of the environment has been properly 'interpreted' as Behr suggests, then that evolution should work a little more with the efforts of the architect than against it.

That outlook still may be a little idealistic (maybe those in the business could chime in here,) but I think there's certainly a case to be made...

Willie_Dow

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Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2004, 11:09:09 PM »
Tom
We talked about the hurricane in Florida, and its affect on the coastal courses.  Vero was hit hard, and we


 must consider what to do.
My thoughts, and maybe yours, would go back to Max Behr and build on nautural evolution.  

No redesign!  Where the sands come in, build opon those elements !

Willie

Doug Siebert

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Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2004, 01:05:41 AM »
Don't these things go in cycles?  You have the old time stuff like the square and rectangular greens of old, then there was kind of a revolt against it, then it came back with for example some of Desmond Muirhead's worst excesses, and then back again to something more natural looking.

Somewhere there's a budding golf architect sucking his thumb and looking at his mobile, thinking thoughts that'll lead him to building greenside mounds designed to look like Egyptian pyramids or castle ramparts 40 years from now...
My hovercraft is full of eels.

A_Clay_Man

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2004, 01:53:02 AM »
On my current road trip I have seen way too much dictation. Holes, that through their maintenance presentation, tell me exactly where to go.

One very interesting modern design utilized many of the core principles missing from most. But had features, mostly slopes and hillocks, that were covered with standard rough, and therefore were made insignificant, unnecessary, redundant and really just plain meaningless. I couldn't help feeling that if I shook the super hard enough, or forced fed him the Jones/ Mackenzie philosophies behind ANGC, it would all change. Then I woke up.

I like not having to ask where to go, I like hitting my ball and finding out I was fooled. But even when that happens, I still have a chance to hit the shot needed for recovery. I also enjoy the antithesis of the above. Seeing something earlier that gave me a clue to a proper shot, when it isn't visible or obvious (without looking in some yardage book) i.e. I recall one hole at Skokie, where there was no possible way to know if it was a dog left or right, just from viewing it from the tee. Did I care? Not really, I just hit then hit it again.

paul cowley

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Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2004, 04:16:57 AM »
'golf architecture is not an art of representation , it is , essentially , an art of interpretation '....i haven't read alot of behr , mainly because i've been afraid that it might do to me what its done to TPaul  ;).....but the above quote just reinforces why i don't want to take the time to do so......he reminds me increasingly of  'conceptual artists' ,who mercifully florished only briefly in the 80's , or even professsor harold hill and his 'think method ', made popular in the Music Man.
   he starts off with a flawed premise and builds from there.
if golf architecture is not an art of representation ,then i'm not sure if i should bother going to work today....i mean , what's the point?........if you don't accept the premise ,then the rest devolves into mumbo jumbo that concludes with 'the medium of the the golf architect is the surface of the earth over which the forces of nature alone are master '....lets really think about that.....makes me gag... and if me and he were together , i would at this point have a flask in my hand and a knee on his chest , saying something to the effect of 'now drink this m----- f----- '.

....but i'd much rather spend my time with Old Tom Morris and a D6 ....just flasking the day away [with TPaul too ].

« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 07:23:53 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2004, 07:37:11 AM »
It's just amazing to me the ire and the confusion Max Behr apparently created with those who are even remotely familiar with the things he wrote and thought about and proposed. In my opinion, absolutely noone thought and wrote as deeply about the subjects he dealt with as Behr did. It seems the real bugaboo with Behr was his bizarre writing style, not necessarly the things he proposed and advocated. Both in his own time and today a lot of people thought he was crazy and that he was wrong.

Some of the things he wrote about in an unbeievably grandiloquent and complex way are pretty basic---such as the ultimate effects of water and drainage---its eroding effects and its capacity to destroy and alter landforms and render them something much less than permanent. None of that it exactly rocket science---matter of fact anyone could probably go out and observe the effects on various land forms of one of the worst rain storms they've ever seen and pretty much understand what he's talking about with convexity vs concavity, and come to the same basic conclusions Behr did.

But Behr also proposed that along with architectural structural integrety---that generally results from properly studying the landforms of nature and the way what he called the "tools of Nature" (wind and water) work on those particular land forms which can render them permanent or not he also proposed that even the most unobservant golfer ('the veriest tyro") would be less critical of something he perceived to be natural vs something he perceived to be man-made. The reasons for the latter, if it's true, are both fascinating and complex.

But the fact is Behr wrote those things, particularly the latter point, over 75 years ago and golf architecture certainly did not evolve the way he suggested it should. A good deal of artificial looking architecture was built in the ensuing years, despite what he said and warned about.

Did that create golf architecture that lacked permancy and was constantly changed? At least we know a lot of architecture was changed in the ensuing years. Was it changed for the reasons Behr said it would be if not constructed as he said it should be?

We know a lot of modern architecture has been changed in the ensuing years. We know a natural course such as CPC hasn't been changed much. But we know another natural course such as ANGC has been changed constantly. And the biggest irony of all is that most of Behr's own architecture has been massively changed.

So, was he right or wrong about the things he wrote about and proposed? Probably some of both. In my opinion, he was right about naturalism and structural integrity but he was probably wrong about man's (the golfer's) ability or capacity to appreciate it or even understand the differences and distinctions and thereby render what he thought would be the best of it to be permanent.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 07:40:09 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2004, 07:51:50 AM »
Discussing what he really meant to say by; "Golf architecture is not an art of representation but an art of interpretation" is probably pointless. That discussion will likely just devolve into a fruitless argument of the words representative and interpretative.

But my question about the ultimate validity of "Art Principles" as a virtual necessity in golf architecture is a good question, at least it is to me. And particularly that factor of "Art Principles" called "Emphasis". Is that really necessary in golf architecture and in golf? Is that really the way of raw Nature itself if someone's trying to maneuver a golf ball around in it from one point to another? Does Nature itself draw your eye to the most important part of her arrangement for the purposes of the game or sport of golf? Of course not. It only has to do with where someone chooses to put the starting point and ending point on her. In those choices the possiblities in variations in Nature are practically endless!   ;)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 07:53:55 AM by TEPaul »

cary lichtenstein

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Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2004, 09:24:51 AM »
If you delve into the history of Art, there are so many styles that the possibilities are endless there. Many people are attracted to only 1 style, e.g., Medieval, Modern, Impressionism, Abstract, Surrealism, etc.,  others embrace the works of many artists, regardless of the period they represent.

I think that good or excellent golf architect can be in many different forms, provided it is well done.

That is why I think some of the discussions here, sometimes are very circular, with some claiming only minialism is the only way to go, or if a site is not walkable, is it worthy of nothingness.

I would love to see others open their minds so they can enjoy more of what the architects are bringing forward today. Afterall, golf is about having a good time.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

TEPaul

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2004, 10:54:46 AM »
Forget about my questions about what Behr may've meant by this remark;

"Golf architecture is not an art of representation; it is, essentially, an art of interpretation. And an interpretative art allows freedom to fancy only through obedience to the law which dominates its medium, a law that lies outside ourselves. The medium of the artist is paint, and he becomes its master; but the medium of the golf architect is the surface of the earth over which the forces of Nature alone are master."
Max Behr, 1927

The answer seems pretty obvious after searching through a couple of old dictionaries and also bothering to really take in what Behr said in the end of that remark.

From an old Webster's Dictionary (closer to Behr's time);

"representationalism" n. 1. the doctrine that that the immediate object of knowledge is an idea in the mind distinct from the external object which is the occasion of the perception.

Obviously Behr's point that 'representation' is more the realm of the paint artist who can be the complete master of his MEDIUM---which is merely paint, but that the golf architect does not have that representationalistic latitude since he's limited to the medium of the surface of the earth over which he can never be the master as although he may alter it he can never control Nature's far greater capacity to alter it through which Behr calls Nature's "tools"----the effects of wind and water on the surface of the earth.

There's no definition I can find right now of something like "interpretationalism" but obviously Behr uses 'interpretation' to explain how a golf architect can only master his MEDIUM by understanding and applying or conforming to the LAWS of Nature over which the surface of the earth will ultimately and always be subject to change.

I guess another and far more easily grasped explanation of the paint artist's medium and the golf architect's medium and who can be the master of what would be that it isn't very likely that the 'tools' of Nature (wind and water) are going to get all over and change the Mona Lisa but they sure can at any time get all over and change any golf course and its architecture in the world!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 10:59:27 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2004, 11:12:41 AM »
Hey, PaulC;

It's OK, despite what Behr said about representation and interpretation in art and golf architecture----you can still get up in the morning and go to work on designing and building golf courses even if you feel like calling what you do "representation".

Webster might get on you for calling it that but I don't think Max Behr will. At the very least all Max would say is after a while Mother Nature is going to wreck what you do if you don't pay close attention to what she does and how---and also that man, the golfer, and even golf's 'veriest' tyro is gonna be a lot more likely to criticize what you create if you make it look like something that Mother N never would make!    ;)

This, of course, evokes the question of what Mother Nature is going to do some day to your golf courses that use old vestiges of military structures. It may have enough structural integrity to have somewhat withstood the onslaught of other military men but does it have the structural integrity to withstand the occasional anger and onslaught of Mother N someday?

You know what many say---"Don't ever underestimate the power of Mother N---or in some other circles---"Don't f... with Mother Nature!"---by failing to understand and abide by her LAWS!    ;)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 11:16:01 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2004, 12:23:18 PM »
John B. Kavanaugh:

Next time you see Tom Fazio tell him you believe he just may be the best architect ever in how he uses "REPRESENTATION" in the art of golf design. Do me a favor, if you would, and take close note of the look on his face when you tell him that!

Or alternatively just ask him if he uses paint as his medium in golf design. Again, please take close note of the expression on his face for me when you tell him that.

Or better yet tell those guys you play golf with on that Fazio course of yours that in your opinion Fazio is the best ever at "REPRESENTATION" in the art of golf design. Again, take close note of the expressions on their faces when you tell them that. I realize that taking close note of the expressions on their faces when you're running for your life from them ain't that easy to do---but give it your best shot for me anyway!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 12:29:46 PM by TEPaul »

frank_D

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2004, 12:38:19 PM »
brother TEPaul

this discussion for me lacks one element - nature's effect over TIME

by our aggregate accumulated knowledge we know nature and more precisely natural forces of wind / water / weather / plate tectonics / volcanic eruptions etc will RESHAPE every piece of landscaping over TIME - so how does one etch a parcel with forever LASTING marks ?

my answer would be it cannot be done without periodic and frequent human intervention to reconstruct the parcel to its originator original layout - and how could the originator leave specific instructions on such interventions when it cannot be predicted in advance how the earth will move

this becomes especially acute if the landscape involves TREES as visual / defensive / shaping / challenging ingredient of a particular hole - as the tree changes the hole will also change - and what if natural forces such as diesease / drought / climate change prevent a similar identical tree from replacing the original which has fallen - what does one make of the originators hole then ?

this is why i cannot make a linear equivilent distinction with the painter as artist - the picture will remain forever as it was originated - a golf hole will not over time

A_Clay_Man

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2004, 01:13:51 PM »
Tom P- If you could, would you type really slowly (so I can understand it) and explain how these art principles relate to the macro picture? I do get the impression that most of Behr's discussion relates to the micro, or individual features, not the art of the design in it's enitety.

TEPaul

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2004, 01:20:01 PM »
"brother TEPaul
this discussion for me lacks one element - nature's effect over TIME"

Not at all. No one said this discussion and the points Behr's making couldn't be viewed in the context of "over TIME" or with the element of extended time. One might even call that very benefical maturation!

"by our aggregate accumulated knowledge we know nature and more precisely natural forces of wind / water / weather / plate tectonics / volcanic eruptions etc will RESHAPE every piece of landscaping over TIME - so how does one etch a parcel with forever LASTING marks?"

FrankD:

I don't think anyone ever said anything like that---eg "forever LASTING marks". A golf course that evolves in look in interesting ways over an extended period of time can be a very beautiful thing---particularly more beautiful than when it was at first opened (although too many on this website either don't seem to understand that or refuse to recognize the extent of the truth of that ;) ).

I think what Behr's talking about in his articles and essays is that if man perceives something to look like Nature itself he's less likely to criticize it and therefore less likely to WANT to alter it than if he perceives it to be just conceived of and created by Man or another man.

Behr supplies a logic and reason for this. He obviously believes that man is more likely to accept obstacles put before him to challenge him (in golf) that are natural or look like Nature because he feels subconsciously LESS able to overcome Nature and all that it is than he is some obstacle put before him by another man to overcome.

In the ultimate analysis Behr's essays center on an examination and finally a comparison between Man's Fundamental relationships with Nature itself VS Man's fundamental relationships with Man himself. It's probably true to say those relationships are not much the same---and that they have many and interesting differences.

Since golf is about playing on both Nature's land forms as well as forms conceived and made by man (the architect) HOW and WHY any golfer responds to what he can tell is one and not the other is probably always going to be interesting to study and know.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 01:21:26 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2004, 01:30:41 PM »
But don't think I'm trying on here to defend everything Behr said and wrote about as true and correct---I only think most all of what he said is just fascinating---and important to know if one really cares about the evolution of golf architecture and all its nuances at any particular time. 75 to 80 years have gone by since Behr wrote most of those essays on golf architecture, natualism vs artificiality, man's likely reaction to one vs the other and even the reasons why.

On his suggestions for architecture itself I believe he was very right. Where I think he may have gone wrong, perhaps even very wrong (which may have been almost proven in the ensuing 75-80 years), is his overestimation of how much golfers in general (even the 'veriest tyro', as he said) might care about one (naturalism in golf and architecture) vs the other (man-made artificiality in golf and architecture).

TEPaul

Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2004, 01:36:25 PM »
I'm of the ever increasing belief that golfers in general (but certainly not all) don't really care that much what they play on. They don't really care if something looks natural vs artifical and man-made. Certainly we do, on a website like this, and a certain number of others out there certainly care, but generally speaking probalbly the majority of golfers don't even notice and if they do don't really care a whit.

And if that's true it may be the best reason of all to encourage a "Big World theory" which means and even requires real differences in golf architecture from one course compared to another.

Adam:

The best thing for you to do is get GeoffShac's book "The Art of Golf Design" and read the Behr essays in that book yourself first. You can get a real good idea from that selection of his essays even though some aren't complete as individual essays or regarding what he wrote about these interconnected subjects. Geoff and I have been going over them for a few years now and you always discover something new or some other nuance in them. Asking me to explain on here what I think anything or everything from them really isn't fair. There're a good number of people on here who crticize the hell out of Behr and they've apparently never really taken the time to even read what he wrote much less to really understand it. You read those essays in Goeff's book first and then we can discuss what they mean on the phone.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 01:47:35 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

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Re:When "Art Principles" met golf design
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2004, 09:38:57 PM »
OK tep , i just got home from representalisming myself at work and while i love a guantlet i'd prefer a glass of wine at the moment....but ....the man is going under the scope [micro that is ]...he needs dissection and i will try to provide it ....
......maybe we could have a behr weekend charrette someplace as typing is not my 'medium' , but weapons AND location are not my choices .

 oh ,and all the forts and ruins etc. already take into effect the forces of nature.....and are by design just going to improve with a little help from my friend and medium 'mother nature'
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca