Outside or Inside Doglegs: Does it matter?

[Mark_F]

Are holes "better" when the shortest route from the tee yields the most favourable position?

Are there many great holes where the outside of the dogleg is preferred? What makes them different to their inside brethren?

Is it a design feature best restricted, if possible to a couple of holes, or doesn't it matter?

[TEPaul]

Mark:

That's a very fine question. There's no doubt in our minds that William Flynn designed a pretty good number of what we call reverse doglegs and I know Coore and Crenshaw have been interested in the concept. I view something like that as excellent visual and architectural deception, although often it's pretty subtle. I think it's a technique used to basically see if a golfer is paying attention to the architecture and the strategies of it, or just playing along with some kind of formulaic mindset about what's always supposed to be.

I call the best of these kinds of reverse dogleg holes, "fakeout" holes--eg better play is wide of the inside of the dogleg--because they might tend to play towards penality and bunkering or whatever on the inside and for what? Basically for no reward at all for a risk---eg the opening to the green is angled out to the outside of the dogleg!!  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Tillinghast has a number of holes in metro NY in which the favorable tee ball position would be on the far side of the dogleg.  I refer to them as fake doglegs because you are lured into taking the most direct line and then end up with a more challenging approach.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

I like an occasional hole where it is an advantage to be on the outside of the dogleg, for variety's sake and to make the player think.  But as a rule, you get better holes the other way.

Why?  Because any hole which favors the outside of the dogleg favors the player who can hit it longest off the tee.  Think about it.

[TEPaul]

"Why?  Because any hole which favors the outside of the dogleg favors the player who can hit it longest off the tee.  Think about it."

TomD:

Interesting! I started thinking about that and just flipped through all the holes of PVGC, Merion East and GMGC and I can only think of a few holes that don't favor the golfer who can hit it longest off the tee. The only ones I can think of are PVGC's #8, #17, perhaps Merion's #7 & #8 and GMGC's #8, the latter being a very nuancy dogleg left where playing a long shot over the trouble very near the green actually results in a much more finese oriented approach shot than one played wide of the more direct line to the hole. I wish they'd allow us to remove the tree over the pond on that hole because I'm certain more long players would take the far larger risk of trying to carry the pond and basically be too close to that green! I think it's potentially one of the ultimate "fakeout" holes!

[Mark_F]

TE Paul:

"I think it's a technique used to see if the golfer is basically paying attention to the architecture and the strategies of it."

Great answer!  

I suppose it's human instinct to want to go for the shortest route possible, so this is obviously an excellent 'befuddling' technique, which I have never thought of before.  

Tom Doak:

Does that mean you would tend to restrict it to shorter or medium length holes?  Although a longer hitter will always have an advantage over me, if they have to hit wedge and I hit a 7 iron, I wouldn't be as concerned if they had 7 iron and I had a 3-iron.  

Maybe it's a strategy best suited to par fives?

[johnk]

I think Doak's comment has to interpreted with the idea that the shorter, more accurate player has an equalizing factor on the inside dogleg holes.

On the outside doglegs, longer players can sling away, either cutting it or spraying it wide.  Either way, they win with little risk.

As distinguished from the rare breed of long and accurate players -  that always has an advantage on any hole.

[Andrew Summerell]

Mark:

I like an occasional hole where it is an advantage to be on the outside of the dogleg, for variety's sake and to make the player think.  But as a rule, you get better holes the other way.

Why?  Because any hole which favors the outside of the dogleg favors the player who can hit it longest off the tee.  Think about it.

This is true in most cases, but not always. The 16th at NSW (sorry for the Australian reference) is a more difficult approach from the inside of the dogleg. When the wind is favouring, the long hitters tend to chop off more of the dogleg than they need to. This leaves themselves with a slightly shorter, but much more difficult 2nd. Because it's a longish par 4, the temptation is always there to give yourself the shorter approach even if it's not the best angle.

Andrew

[Joel_Stewart]

A case study on this subject could be Medalist in Hobe Sound, FL.  Pete Dye had all of the bunkers on the inside and over the last 10 years, Greg Norman has taken them all out and moved them to the outside.  It has completely changed the course and softened it up considerably.

[Keith Durrant]

I guess I'm a little confused by the original question, but if the fairway is 25 yds wide on a right-angle dogleg, then a player landing inside has up to a two club-shorter shot than a player who plays wide. Surely, always an advantage?

The distance hit from the tee might impact the strategy of the second shot to the green, i.e. if a little too short, then a draw or fade might be required to hit the correct half of the green.

Keith

[TEPaul]

"LCC #1 played to the outside to a back center pin today yielded a three.."

redanman:

You really are incapable of making yourself clear aren't you? If you three putted #1 today why don't you just say so!