[Jeff_Mingay]

Henry,

I'll use Devil's Paintbrush as an example again. I really enjoy playing Devil's Paintbrush. There are quite a few very interesting holes out there. But the double greens and sod wall bunkers are a bit gimmicky in my view.

Granted, the owners and architects attempted to create a "faux links" there, which is fine. That was there goal, and they did a really good job with it. Same might be true at Eagle's Nest, Osprey, and Glencairn.

I'm not saying that these courses are "weak". Just like Devil's Paintbrush, they're probably very interesting to play. (I haven't yet played any of the three.) However, I think the aesthetics are overdone. Given free reign, I probably would have attempted to allow the inherent character of those individual properties drive my design, rather than impose a "links" look.

That's all.  

[Robert Thompson]

Jeff -  Interesting that you say you'd have done something different on the Glencairn, Osprey and Eagle's Nest sites.

For one, I think two of these projects can be easily defended. At Osprey, Doug was simply trying to get some notice, to do something out of the ordinary, before it was widely done. The Paintbrush opened at the same time -- and I think both courses have grown in prestige and popularity since. Turns out Osprey was pretty flat as well, if I remember correctly. I think Doug and Ian turned it into a pretty good golf course that I still have fun playing.

As for Eagles Nest -- my understanding is the type of faux links was dictated by the site and the fill that could be brought in. I think it works well -- though I do wonder about using differing bunker styles within the site. Maybe time won't be as kind to Eagles Nest, but so far it may be the most impressive course to open in Canada since the, ironically, the Paintbrush. And that includes Blackhawk, of which I am a big fan....

Glencairn is where this notion breaks down, if you ask me. I think the south nine does a nice job of replicating Muirfield's look. However, the other two nines have forced carries and the theme of a seaside links really breaks down -- making me wonder if you're right, and in this case Tom should have tried something else. I'm sure that he saw the popularity of the Paintbrush and Osprey and wanted a piece of that action.

Isn't it interesting that perhaps the best "faux" links in recent memory is Kingsbarns, where they moved earth to create dunes that no longer existed. I know there are detractors, but I think it is a truly great course that will gain momentum over time.

Robert

[Jeff_Mingay]

Rob,

Good point about Osprey being done about the same time as Devil's Paintbrush - before a faux links has been attempted in the Toronto area. Again, my comments about doing something different with the site are subjective, made without any knowledge of how the project developed.

How do you replicate Muirfield's look on a property in suburban Toronto that I presume didn't resemble the Muirfield site in raw form without imposing a preconceived idea onto the site? It can't be done. In turn, no matter how interesting it might be to play, the course appears a bit contrived. This is what I've been trying to get across from the beginning of this thread.

[ian]

Tommy,

As I said to Jeff Mingay on the phone, I do enjoy the conversation, and appreciate both your opinions, but it's far too much fun to question them than not.

I think I can fill out your list of architects quite comfortably, but I still hold my opinion that many architects are not in this for the money. I think we "expanders of ladies tees" get easily broad brushed with the well known big budget architects.

I have said this for years, man-mad massive containment by way of mounds will be the ruination of Golf
I think that technique is being used less and less with any reasonable site. There is no question that C&C and Doak have influenced all architects.

People will only voice their opinion by just not showing-up to play there.
Not for a while, the public golf courses there suck.

No one was putting a gun to the head of Pat Ruddy and telling him to build all sorts of semi-symmetrical mounds of containment and then falsely calling it "dune-like."
I'll give you that one, that's true.

Are you trying to say that the containment mounding of this course is actually capped mounds of trash?
Yes

  If not, are you telling me that its easier to create symmetrical, round mounds then it is to create those that are more aesthetically and artistically pleasing, and if needed at all?
No artistic and natural looking mounds are very hard and time consuming to build.

There is nothing more in this world I would like to do then get with Ian Andrew and create a golf course on such a horrible piece of property such as this.
Your on, I'm in, I perfer collaboration.

 
"One man's golf course is another man's dump." Or something like that......
Oscar the grouch says trash is treasure....read that to my son last night

Ian, It would look to me that the Augusta-effect is in full bloom in Montreal.
I touch up photos Tommy, that is why I never believe them in a web site.


Hey, I got an idea! Why not just put in some Field Turf and make it a year round course! Just scrape away the snow!
Now you have my interest, but it would get in the way of hockey.
 

Ian, I got an even better idea, find us a spot on a trash dump on the other side of Montreal and we'll create a course that will make people from that other side, travel over to it! I guarantee it. No Field Turf though. I only want real grass! We'll do it cheaper, better and make it more affordable to play.
Tommy, I'm in!

[Robert Thompson]

Jeff -- I actually think that nine holes of Glencairn work perfectly in the Muirfield model -- but the other 18 don't. There are good holes within that other 18 -- but not all of them actually have that links feel. Too many hazards, where the holes simply fall back into the traditional Tom McBroom mode.

I don't see why a links-like look can't be an option, especially if the land fits it, like the Paintbrush or Osprey. The other reality, that I think you and Tommy are ignoring, is that these courses are popular. It is a market driven effect -- if they weren't popular, then architects up here would stop building them.

Instead of looking at the negative in this, why not regard it as a positive. After playing Osprey and the like, I really, really wanted to seek out the real seaside links. I've spent three weeks in Scotland doing that.

Robert

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ian,
I have never doubted your sincerity one bit, and I too liked to be pressed. Sometimes I amaze evenmyself later on reading some of this stuff and realize how much more I have learned up to that point.

Robert,

From experience in the Land of CCFAD's, once the newness wears off, its just like Nintendo. Sales eventually subside and they have to sell more so they discount it. Interest also wains and soon that golf course is spoiled product in the minds of those who own it and those that frequent it, so the owners sell it to get out before the bottom falls out and those who play it go to the next best new product nearby in town.

Now I realize there isn't a whole lot of public golf options in Montreal, and this makes this course even more viable, but honestly, when I'm in full health, I like to play three to four times a week. I swear it!  How is a person supposed to do that at $100.00 Canadian?

Instead of being the enjoyable hang-out it could be.--Its just too expensive for a round of golf to be played because too much money went into it to be made.  

The green fee is sucking the life out of the course.

[Matt Kardash]

Tommy,
At it's weekend peak it only costs $64 canadian

During the week the prices range from around 35 to 55 dollars.

Honeslty, this place is priced reasonably.

Though the Canadian dollar finished at over 0.8 american yesterday. The days of buying stuff for free in canada seems to be over for you guys.

[Jeff_Mingay]

From experience in the Land of CCFAD's, once the newness wears off, its just like Nintendo. Sales eventually subside and they have to sell more so they discount it. Interest also wains and soon that golf course is spoiled product in the minds of those who own it and those that frequent it, so the owners sell it to get out before the bottom falls out and those who play it go to the next best new product nearby in town.

Brilliant comment, Tommy.

Think about all of those great courses throughout the world that have truly endured. They all derive remarkable character from inherent conditions.  

[Jeff_Mingay]

I don't see why a links-like look can't be an option, especially if the land fits it, like the Paintbrush or Osprey.

Rob,

That's my whole point. The inherent landscape at Devil's Paintbrush doesn't resemble linksland. And we've already heard that the "dunes" at Osprey are completely manufactured. A links concept doesn't fit those properties. Nor Glencairn, based on your comments.

As Tommy points out, they might be popualr now. But the fear is, they may lose out to the next "trend".

Thank goodness Stanley Thompson didn't manufacture a faux links at St. George's  

[ian]

Tommy,

From experience in the Land of CCFAD's, once the newness wears off, its just like Nintendo. Sales eventually subside and they have to sell more so they discount it.
Courses up here have gone up continuously as long as I have played golf. The only thing about to take the price down is the dramatic glut of high end public courses; but the average public course will not be dropping their price with these guys.

Jeff,

That's my whole point. The inherent landscape at Devil's Paintbrush doesn't resemble linksland.
It's not a links, they never called it a links, it's just built using revetted bunkers and some cool stuff borrowed from links courses. And it is still a great course that fits naturally over that extremely rolly and open site.

And we've already heard that the "dunes" at Osprey are completely manufactured. A links concept doesn't fit those properties.
The site was flat and 140 acres, the mounds are for safety, period. Are they too uniform, yes, but it seperated the holes.
Our client wanted three entirely different looking courses. Our decision was to build a "faux links" because there was nothing like that in Ontario.

I pose the question to you, what was a better answer at Osprey Valley? Course is on 140 acres, wide enough for 4 fairways to run side by side. The east side is a railway line and the west is a road. The site was essentially flat, treeless and no soil too. Client wanted something completely different.

Osprey Valley for those who haven't seen it, done in 1992

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

Of course, without having seen the Osprey site pre-golf course and speaking to the client and local authorities about "wants" and "requirements" leading up to the course design and construction, it's difficult to answer your question.

All I can say is, there are options to a faux links. That's not to say you guys didn't make the right decision at Osprey.

Again though, go see Tallgrass. Gil had a small, restricted, flat site to work with. He didn't construct a "links looking" golf course. And, there are some very, very interesting artificial features out there that don't resemble "dunes".

[ian]

Jeff,

Again though, go see Tallgrass. Gil had a small, restricted, flat site to work with. He didn't construct a "links looking" golf course. And, there are some very, very interesting artificial features out there that don't resemble "dunes".
So I understand correctly, his "artificial" features at Tallgrass are a great response to a flat site, while our seperation mounds at Osprey are not.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Review my posts throughout this thread, Ian. I didn't say anything about Osprey other than it was constructed to mimic a "links look". And you agree. I didn't say your "separation mounds" weren't the correct response on that particularly site. All I'm saying above is, Tallgrass exhibits some very interesting artificial features.

[ian]

Jeff,

Somehow the Monty Python arguement sketch comes to mind. See you in a few weeks.

Ian

[Robert Thompson]

Tommy: on the "newness factor."

I guess what I'm saying is that these so-called "faux links" have actually become more, not less, popular over time. Osprey Valley is still a big hit and Devil's Paintbrush, Dana Fry's attempt, sees more players now than ever before.
Hard to say whether that's true with Mr. Ruddy's course -- the Quebec market is harder to judge -- but it wouldn't surprise me.

Anyway, I guess my point is that people seem to really like these courses, which is why they continue to get built....

Robert

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