[Derek Floyd]

This past week we remove some of the lower branches from the elm on 2 west which is located towards the back third of this green.  After doing so some of us got into a discussion as to the fairness of this tree and how it effects the play of this hole.  This past year we brought back into play a pin position in the very back left of this green.  Unfortunately i have not had the chance to play this hole with the pin in that position as it was not ready until this fall.  I was just wondering what some of you think of this hole and the fair or unfairness of this tree.  I am sure most of you know this hole but if not here is my description of the hole.  The hole plays to around 410 yards from the back tees and is a slight dogleg right.  The green is guarded by two deep bunkers, one runs along the left side of the green all the way back to the elm and the other is on the right front side and kinda extends out in front of the green.  For most pin positions a tee ball needs to be placed to the left center of the fairway leaving a good angle to the green and the option to run the ball onto the green.  However a back left pin position does not allow for a normal iron shot at the pin.  With the pin in this position a tee ball needs to be placed to the right side of the fairway and a low drawing iron shot which has to carry the right side bunker would be the only way to get it close.  I find nothing wrong with this but others i work with did.  What are your takes on this hole.

[brad_miller]

One of WF west's finest 2nd shots, that is if you have left yourself in proper postion off the tee. Don't feel that the run up is a real option for 75% of the pin postions. Front right bunker is somewhat diagonal adding a few extra yards of carry to pins on the right side. I like the tree, hope it lives a long life.

[TEPaul]

Derek:

Talk a little bit about the green and the green contours. Is there anything about the green contouring (or slope) that can filter the ball right to left particularly toward the back left of the green?

[Derek Floyd]

TEPual, the green has a good bit of contour most from back to front.  Both right and left sides contour towards the middle creating somewhat of a ravine that runs throught the green kinda in the shape of a straightened out "S" if you can picture this.  In my opinion with a low hit punch shot with right to left movement from the right middle of the fairway should allow you to get within 10 feet of a back left pin.  

[neil regan]

Derek,
  I have hit more shots than maybe anyone to the "new" back left pin on 2 West. The elm tree doesn't bother the shot to that pin unless you're coming in from the extreme left and inside of maybe 100yds. With the new tee at 455, that distance will become rare.
   The tree will take an interest in a shot off-line left, even from the right side. As was true with the late Great Elm , however, it is usually a benevolent carom onto the putting surface that is your penalty.
   The position does reward a lower shot that continues pin-ward after touching down. The "ravine" actually has a crest as it nears the pin, inviting, you might say, aggressive approaches but sending soft-spoken suitors back down the path.
   I have some pictures that you're welcome to post. Let me know.

[TEPaul]

Derek:

From the way you've described the tree it sounds to me as if it actually may create a few interesting demands on the hole.

Some subscribe to the idea that any green or any pin should be defended by architecture strickly on the ground and that all approach shots should maintain multi-optionalism in shape (in the air).

I'm not one of those and feel that often a situation like you seem to be describing can make some holes more interesting, more nuancy. Sure, all available aerial options may be reduced somewhat because of the tree, but so what? The idea is to consider all the ramifications of the hole given all the features involved on that hole including that tree.

I think the overall test (for the tree) should be does the tree make the hole more one dimensional or doesn't it? If it does the tree is probably somewhat detrimental to the strategies and the overall quality of the design and if it does not make it more one dimensional--ie if it makes the hole more interesting somehow it should stay.

It's a little hard for me to visualize in text only but it sounds as if the tree makes it slightly more interesting. I'm not necessarily a subscriber to the theory that just because it's a tree on a golf course it should be removed.  

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