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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Flynn's homage to a great golf hole
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2004, 10:38:49 PM »
Wayne Morrison,

Tommy's picture shows the current Royal Palm Yacht and Tennis golf course right where the old Boca Raton South course existed.

Are any of the original Flynn holes incorporated in the Royal Palm course.

Craig Disher,

I posted before seeing your response.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2004, 10:41:04 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn's homage to a great golf hole
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2004, 10:40:08 PM »
Tommy,

This photograph looks to be the Cloister Inn Golf Course done by Donald Ross in 1925.  At this time, Flynn was designing the North and South courses for the Ritz Carlton.  We have these plans and they match a plat for the Mizner Development Company in 1927.  I can't remember offhand but I believe the Ross course was plowed under and Flynn's Boca Raton courses were laid out here under Geist's redevelopment of Mizner's failed project.

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn's homage to a great golf hole
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2004, 10:42:24 PM »
Craig,

Does my memory serve me correctly or am I too tired to figure this out clearly this evening?  I gotta go back to the files to double check all of this.  

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn's homage to a great golf hole
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2004, 09:03:12 AM »
Wayne,
I'm confused. Which photo do you think is Ross's Cloisters? Tommy's photo is a contemporary one of the Boca Raton resort its adjacent course which replaced Flynn's BR North. His photo also includes the Royal Palms development on the site of the BR South.




wsmorrison

Re:Flynn's homage to a great golf hole
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2004, 10:06:06 AM »
"Wayne,
I'm confused. Which photo do you think is Ross's Cloisters? Tommy's photo is a contemporary one of the Boca Raton resort its adjacent course which replaced Flynn's BR North. His photo also includes the Royal Palms development on the site of the BR South."

Craig,
The photo that Tommy posted is similar in routing to the original course on that site, Ross's Cloister Inn GC.  I thought the B+W might have been an old photo but the number of houses and variations of routing confused me in my sleepy stupor last night.  Since his photo is of the present Boca Raton and Royal Palms courses then I can see how I confused ye and me.  Interesting that the present course is reminiscent of the Ross design....I wonder if the developers did that on purpose.

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn's homage to a great golf hole
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2004, 05:38:53 PM »
It's hard for me to believe that the new course at the resort was designed with Ross's Cloisters in mind. If you compare the original Flynn plan to the current photo, you can see that new construction gobbled up 20-30% of the land Flynn used. I think it's just coincidental that the current routing looks like Ross's.

TEPaul

Re:Flynn's homage to a great golf hole
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2004, 06:10:24 PM »
"So then, is the "general HHA" concept Tillinghast's or Flynn's?"

redanman, you booby, the HHA concept is a reuse of the "Sahara" concept that C.B. Macdonald used on the 2nd hole of NGLA from the architectural concept he found at Sandwich's #3 where one option was to carry 200 yards of sand off the tee. Tillinghast obviously recast that idea as a suggestion to Crump on the 7th hole at PVGC and Flynn picked up the concept from that time we call "Flynn's PVGC influence". Flynn was a member of PVGC and so was his partner Howard Toomey and don't forget the Wilson's and Merion actually lent Flynn to PVGC probably to finish off the construction of holes #12-15 at PVGC (as well as to help fix PVGC's agronomic failure) after Crump died in 1918. There were a number of things Flynn picked up from PVGC in his later designs such as greens that were islands in sand and the use of the so-called "interrupted" or "segmented" fairway.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2004, 06:12:00 PM by TEPaul »

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn's homage to a great golf hole
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2004, 12:45:39 AM »
Tom,

I think it is fair to say that the evolution of the "Hell's Half Acre" hazard emerged from C.B. Macdonald's version at N.G.L.A. When it opened, it was deemed an architectural masterpiece, and egos aside, I can only imagine most of the great golden age architects respected and studied the course.

I would argue that Tillinghast's 'Sahara' hole at Pine Valley is a rather loose interpretation of Macdonald's rendition. The scale and severity of the hazard seem to be much more impressive, offering a greater thrill to those able to carry it. Further, Pine Valley's 'Sahara' hole does not offer an alternative route, the hazard is a forced carry, and thus penal by design.

Tyler Kearns
« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 12:46:28 AM by Tyler Kearns »

T_MacWood

Re:Flynn's homage to a great golf hole
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2004, 06:26:14 AM »
BillV
That is a very good question. Maybe one of the Tillie experts can give their two cents.

It is my impression that the HHA at PV, that Tillinghast took credit for, and used often on a number of his own designs, was an original concept, and not based upon any links model. At that time the term Sahara was more or less a generic one, used to describe any large expanse of sand.

TEPaul

Re:Flynn's homage to a great golf hole
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2004, 07:01:16 AM »
The thing most of you guys should probably come to realize and accept is most architects, and certianly architects in Macdonald, Tillinghast and Flynn's day used features (massive bunkering and such for instance) as concepts in what they did. The generally got that concept from somewhere and simply because the feature in that concept did not look exactly like in dimension or something else the feature they took that concept from does not mean they didn't take the idea from it.

We know for a fact that the 2nd hole at NGLA was modeled after the sahara concept at Sandwich because Macdonald and Whigam wrote a rather long article about NGLA's #2 hole explaining exactly that.

It seems pretty obvious that Tillinghast is given credit by Crump and most everyone else for the idea of HHA on the 7th at PVGC. There may be something somewhere in Tillinghast's voluminous writing where he explains exactly where he came up with the idea of a HHA which he referred to in "The Course Beautiful" as "the great hazard" as being the prime factor in a sketch he drew of the true "three shotter", a par 5 that no one was supposed to reach, in concept, in two shots.

Seeing as Tillinghast was an early writer and very good player he undoubtedly was aware of NGLA as practically every good east coast architect and good player of that early time was. (Macdonald was a friend of Crump's, and probably Tillinghast's too, and he did make at least one early visit and another later visit to the site of PVGC (at first he called it "Crump's Folly" and said it could be a great golf course if Crump could figure out how to get grass to grow there---which coincidentally became a huge problem just as it had at early NGLA!).

So it's probably very appropriate to assume that HHA was a loose "concept" use of the sahara concept from Sandwich and then NGLA in a different arrangement. This is probably not much different from the "concepts" Macdonald noted and drew in Europe for his NGLA. Many seemed to think Macdonald exactly copied many of those holes in Eurorpe. By his own admission (and writing) he did not---or not entirely. What he did is encorporate some of those "concepts" of entire holes or parts of them from Europe into some of what he did at NGLA. Probably half the holes of NGLA are that way and the other half are completely original holes. Tilllinghast was logically no different. He was certainly familiar with European golf and architecture having spent time there before and in the beginning of his career. It may be true to say that Tillinghast originally came up with the idea of what he called "a great hazard" smack dab in the middle of a super long par 5 for that time. It's known, also that Crump even before he began building PVGC wanted two par 5s that were impossible to reach in two shots so with that requirment and with the application of Tillinghast's "great hazard" of 100 yards long (Tillinghast actually said that) the idea of the true "three shotter" of the type of PVGC's HHA #7 was born. But the very idea of that enormous sand hazard probably came from somewhere and most like NGLA by way of Sandwich.

As said on this or another thread there's no quesition at all in our minds that William Flynn borrowed the concept of PVGC's #7 HHA in his later designs, probabaly exclusively his long par 5 designs.

Again, Flynn was extremely familiar with PVGC---he was actually lent by Merion to finish the construction on holes 12-15 and to solve the agronomy problems on the course following Crump's unexpected death. Flynn was a member of PVGC as was his partner Howard Toomey.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 07:25:58 AM by TEPaul »