Integrated greens and tees

[Patrick_Mucci]

The first hole at NGLA has the 2nd tee directly behind the green.  In fact, part of the green is or was the tee.

The 10th hole at GCGC has the 11th tee directly behind the green.

The 1st hole at Pine Valley has the 2nd tee down, behind the first green.

Other then Gil Hanse's 3rd & 14th tees at Applebrook I don't recall seeing a modern day golf course presenting that relationship.

I understand the liability issues in today's environment, but what other golf courses, new and old, have the next hole tee almost as an integral part of the previous hole's green ?

[David Ownby]

Pat,

Holston Hills has two "integrated greens and tees." The back tee box for the par three fourteenth is roughly ten to fifteen paces from the back right edge of the green and the sixteenth tee box is less than ten paces from the left hand side of the fifteenth green.

In both cases the area in between the green and tee is maintained at fairway length. As a result the two seem to blend together very naturally. The fifteenth green/sixteenth tee box is one of my favorite spots on the course. (There is a good picture of it in Ran's writeup. The two bags to the left of the green are practically on the sixteenth tee box.)

I'm not sure if the angles of play were designed with the "liability issue" in mind, but considering the proximity of the greens and tees I very rarely see people ducking for cover at either tee box.

[Peter_Herreid]

In the relatively new course category, Washington National GC, out here in Auburn, WA, has a couple of the back tee boxes blended into the fairway cuts/chipping areas from the back of the previous green.  I don't have pix to show this, but I don't think those back tees get a lot of play, except in collegiate events, etc., so I don't think there's as much of the liability concern...

Peter

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Is an itegrate mean the same thing as integrate?  

Two of the coolest I know other than those you just mentioned are #6 to # 7 Friar's Head and #9, #10 Merion West. Both of those greens sort of meld (the grassing) right into the tees.

Also if you think about a few of the holes at Maidstone they're so close they seem downright dangerous (#5/6, 7/8, 16/17.

But one of the closest and most definitely the most dangerous I've ever seen---ever--is #17/18 North Berwick.

[John_Lovito]

Pat,

Gil has done this with his restoration at Plainfield.  The 10th green now flows into the 11th tee and 16 green into 17.

[JohnV]

The first tees at Latrobe, Butler (Butler PA) and Apache Stronghold all are attached to the putting green.  The putting green at Butler also used to be attached to the 9th green so the first tee and 9th greens were attached, but they've changed the mowing so that the 9th green is now separate.

[mike_malone]

 This was done at the redo of White Manor. I would like to see it at Rolling Green( I'll let the negative lurkers from there figure out which holes )

[David_Tepper]

This topic was discussed here before within the past 6-12 months.  The black tees on the 1st hole of the Olympic Club Ocean Course are an integral part of the enormous practice putting green that serves both the Ocean and Lake Courses.

[TEPaul]

Here's a really unique integrated situation I can't say I've ever really heard of before. The large practice putting green at Merion East has had the far corner of it reformed to serve as both a practice putting green but during championships apparently that section will just double as the tip tee on #14.

The extended length tee on #15 is remarkably close to #16 green now and as always also must serve as an extension of the "ladies aid" way around the quarry. The 17th tee seems even closer to the 16 green than it ever did as it's now along side the 16th green almost to the back of it.

[Jeff_Mingay]

We built an integrated green/tee complex at the 10th and 11th holes at Blackhawk GC in Edmonton, Alberta. The 11th tee is about 2-3 feet above the level of the 10th green, only a few steps immediately behind it. It's one of my favourite spots on the golf course.  

[Rick_Noyes]

Pinehurst #2 has tee-green complexes that just sort of blend into one another, 1 and 2, 8 and 9, 9 and 10, 17 and 18 come to mind.  There is also one I can think of at Pine Needles where the bunker face behind the green is either the side of the next tee or at least very close.  Can't remember which hole.
Proabably quite common back when courses were built for walking.

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick,

The 15th tee at Rustic Canyon is an extension of the rear surrounds of the 14th green. Very cool.

Mike

[Jim Sweeney]

There are a number of such structures on Pine Needles and Mid Pines.

[Mike Hendren]

While not integrated, it's a small commute from the 14th green at Lookout Mountain to the 15th tee.  



Not to mention this "hike" from the 8th green to 9th tee:



Mike

[Anthony_Nysse]

The 6th green and the 7th tee at Friars are this way along with 13 green and 14 tee. I believe that its the 5th tee and 6th green at Tallgrass are like this also.

[TEPaul]

I often wondered why the 9th tee at NGLA is so much higher than the 8th green immediately next to it. Now I think I know why!  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I know you're one of the biggest advocates of adding tee length at NGLA. Do you think it would qualify as "integrated" if they added about 30-40 yards to the tee on #13? I think the chances would be better than not that in the first day someone might "integrate" an approach shot to #12 right into your left ear!  

[igrowgrass]

Number Ten green at Plainfield Country Club, runs into the tee for number 11.  A chipping area is mowed off the back left of the green right into the next tee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Pat:

I know you're one of the biggest advocates of adding tee length at NGLA.

Only at selected holes[/color]

Do you think it would qualify as "integrated" if they added about 30-40 yards to the tee on #13?

I'm opposed to adding length to Eden holes as I think it destroys the shot values and architectural intent of the original design.[/color]

I think the chances would be better than not that in the first day someone might "integrate" an approach shot to #12 right into your left ear!  

You see, you're misguided, and have once again demonstrated how little you know about the architecture at NGLA.
If you knew anything about NGLA you would know that that shot would go into my right ear. [/color]

What's the history behind the elevated left tee at # 9.
Was it original or added some time later ?
The schematic in "Scotland's Gift" indicates that it was there in 1928, but I wonder, what percent of the time it is used.

It would seem safer, yet visually displeasing to those in the 8th fairway.[/color]

Dave Tepper,

I think you're confusing the intergration of practice putting greens with regular greens, such as Oakmont's 9th and Garden City's 18.

I'm referencing greens that intergrate directly or tangentially with the tee on the next hole.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Myopia Hunt had a number of tees adjoining the preceeding greens:  #3-4, #7-8, #10-11, #12-13, #14-15.  #3-4 was danger, danger, as was #8 in the short landing area of #4 tee shot.

Loved the course!

JWK

[TEPaul]

"You see, you're misguided, and have once again demonstrated how little you know about the architecture at NGLA.
If you knew anything about NGLA you would know that that shot would go into my right ear."

Pat:

Yep, you're right about that---it logically would have to go in your right ear. I guess I must have meant it would exit out your left ear! The real question though, is if it went in your right ear and out your left ear, do you think you'd notice? Furthermore, it'd probably be a damn good approach shot onto #12--maybe just catch the upslope in front of the green and bounce up. I'm pretty confident if it happened as you were hitting your shot to #13 it too would be a pretty good one!  

[James Edwards]

Just to bring some English flavour to the mix, those who have been to Walton Heath, London, will know that the greens and tees are close on most occasions, none more so than on the 3rd on the Old where the green is literally part of the 4th tee directly behind.  As a feature, it works extremely well in my view.

[Mike_Cirba]

Elverson, PA must be the world leader in greensite/tee area integration.  Both Gil Hanse's French Creek and neighboring Stonewall (North) by Tom Doak utilize several of them.

It's very cool and I almost never tire of the concept.

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

Pat:

You obviously haven't seen much of my work.  We do that a lot, probably as a result of seeing it on darn near every hole at St. Andrews.  Jim Urbina's dream is to do every tee as an extension of the previous fairway.

At Sebonack, so far, the back tee on #1 will be an extension of the practice tee, the back tee on #2 is off the collar of #1 green, the back tees of #3 are an extension of the side of #2 fairway, and the seventh members' tee is attached to both the sixth and ninth fairways.  Unfortunately, there are a few holes where trees interrupt the green to tee flow.

Thanks for the idea!

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

CC of Columbus (GA) which Barney and I had the pleasure of playing this summer has the first and 10th tees located in the squared off corners of a large practice green located directly in front of the clubhouse.

It makes for a wonderful focal point and center of attention/activity.  I must admit it is somewhat unnerving but in the end rewarding in the rush it provides hitting your tee shots (especially your opening one) off of a teeing surface that is maintained to putting green conditions with members not only watching you from the clubhouse, but also those that are practice putting stopping to watch your effort.  VERY COOL!!!!