[Darren_Kilfara]

My brother is coming over to Scotland next April for his honeymoon, and his wife-to-be is letting him play a few rounds of golf while he's here. (I'm not asking...) He readily admits to being a "name whore" - I've succeeding in convincing him to play North Berwick, but he wants the other two places we play to be Open courses. (That's not negotiable.) Muirfield will be one of them, but assuming that the Old Course isn't an option, and that we're not going to Carnoustie, which would you recommend: the Ailsa course at Turnberry, or the championship course at Troon? As I'm going with him, I'm interested primarily in the architectural comparison and not anything to do with facilities, conditioning, etc.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

Cheers,
Darren

[Robert Thompson]

Darren: I'd be very surprised, especially since you know your brother is coming in April, if you couldn't secure a round at the Old Course. Have the tee times been allocated? We got our tee time for April in March this year and I think you'll find balloting is easy at that time of year....

Of course Turnberry is amazing....

Robert

[THuckaby2]

Darren:  this is supposed to be about HIM, not you, right?  So we should consider which of the two HE will get more of a kick out of, correct?  Of course you are tagging along, so your needs do count...    But you've played both many times already, right?

I gather money is no object?  Neither of these places is cheap for the foreign visitor, so unless you have some way to soften the blow, both will be very expensive... but Turnberry is extremely so.  This should be kept in mind.  Of course one only lives once and should not put a price tag on life experiences, but still, full disclosure is a good thing too.

So does your brother even care about "architecture"?  Not many golfers do... If he's demanded that it be Open courses only, well... it seems to me he's not gonna care if he misses some cool Colt bunkering or a redan here or there or anything else of the architectural sort....

How old is your brother?  I think one has to be at least 35 or so to have the requisite historical appreciation for Turnberry, given the greatest thing ever to happen there occurred in 1977 (Nicklaus v. Watson).  Seems to me most want to play the course to relive THAT, or to take in the fantastic views, and play the oceanside holes....

Sorry for all the questions.  But it helps to get this all straight before one gives recommendations.

And based on all of this, if my assumptions are correct (I'm thinking he's younger and doesn't care about Jack v. Tom that much), I'd say take him to Troon.  Far more cool things have happened there lately, not the least of which being the most recent Open.  It is fun to try to recreate what one has seen on TV, and that will work much better on Troon than on Turnberry.  Troon also offers a wonderful 36 hole day, with golf on the Portland and the Old course with lunch in the middle, which makes for great fun.  Troon does have much more of a "club" feel also, as opposed to Turnberry which is most definitely an American-style resort.  That is, the course surely is a true links, and not American at all, but all the surroundings really do remind one much more of Pebble Beach than Muirfield, if that makes any sense.  I'm thinking your brother will get more of a kick out of the Scottish club than the fancy resort.

BUT... this is all trumped if your brother is 35+ and especially if he is a fan of either Jack or Tom.  If that's the case, take him to Turnberry.  One simply has to see that in person at least once if one is a fan of either of those golf greats.

So you can see I made not a single comment about the "architecture" of either course.  Why?  Because to me it's a wash - they are both fantastic golf courses and really equal.  That being the case, one makes one's decision based on extraneous factors.

TH

[Brian_Gracely]

If you really wanted to endear yourself to your future sister-in-law, then chipping in for a night (for them) at Turnberry and a spa-treatment for her would go a long way.  Obviously this is not cheap and maybe you don't cover it all, but Turnberry's Spa is world-class.  

Wait, I haven't spoken about golf...??  Turnberry is breath-taking, so you won't find many people that don't enjoy a round(s) there.  

If you decide to go the Troon route, don't forget Prestwick is right next-door and hosted 12 Open Championships.  And between Troon's brute-strength challenge and Prestwick's sporty challenge, it would make an interesting contrast in styles.  

Or couldn't you just try and play them both?  Assuming you're going to drive all the way across the country to get there, why not play them both as they are about an hour apart?

[THuckaby2]

Darren:

Mr. Gracely is wise - heed his counsel.  Of course he might have just cost you something in four figures, but you would be a favored brother-in-law forever.  That is a very good status to have (speaking from experience).

The main thing though is that this simply can't just be all about architecture.  Not for an admitted name-whore who only wants to play Open courses.

If that does become negotiable, well... Turnberry's Kintyre course is damn fun and your bro may end up preferring it to the Ailsa... and Western Gailes is right there too, which damn well may be the best of the bunch, Ailsa and Troon Old included....

But that is not negotiable.  Brian's right in suggesting an inclusion of Prestwick - you could bag on the Portland part of the Troon day and do that instead and though it will cost you, well... that is one perfect golf day, methinks.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

The question was Turnberry or Troon. There was nothing mentioned about famous or historic courses nearby. Nothing about chocolate on the pillows, spas or haut cuisine. The man is a "Name whore." His wife has given him a ticket of leave to play thrice.....so be it.


Play Turnberry. It's a resort with its concommitant drawbacks but the course is an absolute joy. Troon has an easy approach for the front nine but most players would consider the homeward nine to be 'Golf' backwards, just one long 'Flog.'

[THuckaby2]

Bob, that is quite well-assessed.  And it might surprise you that I'd suggest Troon, given my traditional dislike for that course.  But I came to respect it a lot more when I played it last summer, so here we are.

My recommendation of Troon is based on Darren's brother being a name-whore and wanting Open courses ONLY.  Of course both are Open courses, but if one really wants the best bang for the interest buck there, how can one go wrong playing the course on which the most recent Open was held?  I'm just thinking he'd play Turnberry and enjoy it, yes, but always wonder "well how well could I have held up to Els at a REALLY tough Open course" or something of the like.

Based on pure plain FUN of play, and visceral views and aesthetic feeling, well... Turnberry is the superior golf course.  It is a blast to play, where Troon is more of a "test", or yes, a slog.  But the holes from 7-12 are all great fun... 1-6 are easy to score on, in the normal wind... then you battle as well as you can come home from 13-18... In the proper mind-set even this slog can be fun.  One just must lower his expectations.

Oh well, what the hell, he can't go truly wrong with either.  It's gonna come down to really what movitates the other Kilfara.  Is it comparison to Els/Hamilton et al and a tough challenge, or fun and a view (with plenty of challenge also)?

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Turnberry.

[Doug Siebert]

I believe Turnberry now requires a stay at the hotel to play the Aisla, does it not?  (Perhaps that's only during the high season, and not during April)  The spa could be a plus with the wife, but just the night there and the golf is easily $500, Troon will be significantly less, even if they've "upgraded" their prices in the wake of this summer's Open.

I kind of like the suggestion of playing Troon and skipping the afternoon round at the Portland in favor of Prestwick.  Providing he can convince his wife she meant "three days of golf" and not "three rounds of golf"

If he's truly a "name whore" it probably wouldn't take him much convincing to play the course that held the first dozen Opens.  Personally I think Prestwick would be capable of holding its own hosting an Open today if it weren't for the issue of where to put the gallery and the tents.

Turnberry is a magnificant course to look at, but I think the golf is better at Troon, personally.

[Robert Thompson]

Turnberry is relatively easy to get on if you call a couple of days in advance. You don't have to stay at the hotel. Troon, on the other hand, is very expensive (150 pounds+) and includes the relief course, which no one really wants to play. Kintyre is a nice follow-up at Turnberry -- and as I said, TOC isn't that hard to get on in April. I bet the ballot is 100% at that point -- I know when I was there this past April there were several afternoon tee times left unclaimed.

Robert

[THuckaby2]

Robert:

Maybe the rules are different for locals?

In setting this up last summer, we were charged more for the 18 holes at Turnberry Ailsa (175 pounds) than the entire 36 plus lunch at Troon (150 pounds).  We were also told quite specifically and clearly we did have to stay at the Turnberry resort to play the Ailsa.

Now we were a group of 12, so maybe that's the reason... and I have heard that people can get around this "must stay to play" rule at Turnberry... But I sure do think that is the general rule.

In any case, neither of these courses come cheaply.  That's why I assumed from the start money won't be an object here for Darren.  

And if that's the case, then bagging on Troon Portland and heading over to play Prestwick remains a darn fine idea... but what the hell, if that's gonna be allowable, and one can get on Ailsa without staying there, then why not the morning at Troon and the afternoon on the Ailsa?

I assume it being a honeymoon, one round of golf will be tolerated... an entire day of it might require requisite time at the spa for the fairer half, if it is tolerate at all, if it is even what one wants to do on one's honeymoon...

 

[Mike Hendren]

My brother is coming over to Scotland next April for his honeymoon, and his wife-to-be is letting him play a few rounds of golf while he's here.

I would suggest neither.  This is a set-up, pure and simple.  Having been happily married for twenty years, I know one when I see one.  I hate to see a grown man stumble so clumsily out of the gate.

Mike

[Paul Richards]

Turnberry BLOWS AWAY Troon, in a landslide!!!

[Darren_Kilfara]

Thanks very much for all of your responses. Bob - your assessment was spot-on, and made me laugh as well. I do find it funny, and also quite endearing, that so many people in this forum try really hard to find ways of squeezing extra rounds out of extra courses in other people's itineraries! Not everyone who comes to Scotland is trying to absolutely maximize their golfing opportunities, you know...

Tom, it's very sweet of you to ask those questions, but I included all the relevant information in my opening post. Just to round this thread off, for everyone who wanted more information:

--We have ONE round of golf to allocate - not two rounds or one day's worth of golf. (In addition to all the other factors, my brother has bad knees - 36 at Muirfield is going to be a bit of a stretch...)

--It has to be on an Open course ("name whore" value).

--He'd prefer to play one course I haven't played before (given that I have played at Muirfield and North Berwick, our other two venues), which rules out the Old Course and Carnoustie this time. I think he wants one chance to remove "home-field advantage" from our inevitable match...

--My brother doesn't really care about the architecture - he's happy to defer to my tastes and to trust my recommendation, and indeed to let me pick which course *I* want to play.

So, on the balance of your replies, I guess I'll choose Turnberry, which has the added bonus (not factored into the original question) of possibly giving my future sister-in-law some time at the spa, etc. I appreciate the input very much!

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

Darren:

Sweetness is my trade in life.  

BUT....if your brother is really a name-whore and demands Open courses - which is ALL you told us (all relevant information, right?) - I do think he'd get much more of a kick out of Troon than Turnberry, for the reasons I stated.  

BUT... Turnberry is much more "fun" to play and most definitely has better views.  If he's into fun and aesthetics more than being a name whore and demanding Open courses, than absolutely, do Turnberry.  

Note that his wife could do the spa wherever you play... they are right next to each other and the spa does offer a la carte services.

As you can see, I am sweet, but I don't give up easily.

 

[ForkaB]

Darren

The Awshuckster is right for all the wrong reasons, as usual! (I'd insert a big smiley face here, but this would be dissing Tom IV who knows me too well...).

Go for Turnberry if you want a Americano-Nipponese experience that would make Paris Hilton and/or Michael Jordan pee in their pants.  As a bonus, you are more likely to be able to play from the tips and this, plus the hillier terrain, will serve you in good stead in your match with your gimpy brother.

Troon, on the other hand can be walked by the arthroscopical surgery-challenged, and reeks of history, including the time that Monty's dad made the mistake of trying to mess with Huckaby.....

I used to think that Turnberry was a better course, and maybe still do, but I found it a bit too easy and boring last time I played it (18 months ago), whilst Troon looked pretty appealing in the Open.

As for spas, Turnberry's would be a never-gonna-make-it-wannabe if it were located in the US--even in flyover country.  My guess is that your sister-in-law-to-be would be more satisfactorily pampered at some place like the Lochgreen House hotel in Troon.

Regardless, enjoy!

[Brian Phillips]

Darren,

I disagree with Tom H here.  I am only 35 years old and was only 8 when the 'duel in the sun' happened but have watched it on video and love it.

Don't forget the White Shark won there as well as Nick Price...
and you get photos like these..



or this one...



It is in my top 5 of courses that I enjoy playing in Europe but I haven't played Troon yet.

Cheers,

Brian

ps off to Ireland on Friday to play the following:
Doonbeg, Ballybunion, Lahinch, Waterville and Kilarney..

[THuckaby2]

I completely concur with the wise Mr. Goodale, for all the right and wrong reasons. It's just too bad Mr. Monty is no longer the club secretary, or one could put in a bad word for me.

And Brian, very good point re the more recent history.  Turnberry does have it's share of that as well.  And it does also make for better photos, as you show.  But I acknowledged that several times already.

I still won't budge on Troon being more appealing to a name whore who refuses to play non-Open courses, though.  The Open was just there, and Price and Norman's wins at Turnberry were not the stuff of legend that would make one absolutely want to play the site on which they occured (whereas Jack v. Tom is).  Video is one thing, being there and/or watching it live and suffering or enjoying it is another.  I just do think that Turnberry means a lot more to those who were around and aware when that 1977 duel occurred... But then again, I am such a stalwart Nicklaus fan I might be off my rocker here.  I just do know that the one and only reason I wanted to play Turnberry was because of this!

If a guy is into name, and wants to experience what an Open course is like, he's just plain gonna get that much better at Troon right now than at Turnberry.

If the other stuff does matter more, than by all means, Turnberry it is.  It is most definitely more "fun" to play.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Tom, my brother is a "name whore" to the extent that he wanted me to fax him my acceptance letter from Muirfield so that he could show it around his office and impress people. His desire to play Turnberry has nothing to do with Nicklaus/Watson and everything (well, at least something) to do with the fact that the course looks cool in the "Tiger Woods 2005" computer game. Does that tell you a bit about the raw material I'm dealing with?

My brother is a neat kid in a lot of ways, but at heart he's a good ol' boy who took up the game recently and enjoys the typical Joe Sixpack experience - complete with carts, mulligans, gimmes and what-not. I'm looking forward to having four rounds alone with him in Scotland and hopefully deprogramming him a bit, but we'll see what happens when he gets here...

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

Darren:

Aha.  Ok, that explains it.  Turnberry it is.

 

[G_Tiska]

Turnberry hands down

[Mike Benham]

Why bother to play at all?  

If you brother wants to name drop, take your money, find a pub, order up round after round of Belhaven Best (you can't find it in the states) and I will guarantee you that his knees won't hurt anymore ...

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