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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2004, 05:13:41 PM »
Matt,

Its not that I don't understand your point, but as Jeff Mingay states, this practice has gone on so long as to be accepted. The difference with the JD Powers surveys is that the reviews could potentially save a life or a personal investment.

I can't imagine anyone losing anything other than a green fee if there were an innaccuate review. If joining a club, it would certainly be based on more than a magazine review.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2004, 05:14:40 PM »
"Tom,
I would put Dana Fry in my list of top five living architects....a list Fazio does not occupy.."

John B:

Jeeeesus, that one really backfired on me!  :)

You know, one time a few years ago I asked Bill Coore who his favorite architect was and he said Dana Fry. So I said what is it about his work you like so much and Bill said, "I don't know, I've never been able to see anything he's ever done, I just think Dana's a really good guy".

If I may be so bold could I prevail upon you to tell us all who the other four living architects are in your top five?   ;)

 

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2004, 07:30:19 PM »
Matt

I just went to bunkershot, did you "steal" the Doak scale?!

http://bunkershot.com/viewstory.cfm?ID=343
« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 09:26:25 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Chris Munoz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2004, 07:43:55 PM »
Is Erin Hills Golf Club going to be private, semi-private....What is the deal?  Who is the founder or founders?  When is it going to be completed.  I bet it will not take that long to construct the course, from what I heard how the land is.  I can't wait to see pics of the course.

Chris
Christian C. Munoz
Assistant Superintendent Corales
PUNTACANA Resort & Club
www.puntacana.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2004, 09:53:18 PM »
I think I have some perspective on this issue.  I've known Ron Whitten for 25 years; I was in line for the job in Wisconsin and lost it to Mike and Dana partly because Ron Whitten agreed to become involved; and a lot of people accused me of conflict of interest when I helped GOLF Magazine with their rankings.  [And amazingly, they still bring it up today!]

I've been around this business a long time now, and it blows me away how many conflicts of interest there are in golf.  The kings are IMG ... they get paid as tournament directors, pay their own clients appearance fees from the budgets of those events, and get a percentage of the TV contracts for those events.  In the old days they would have called that a vertical monopoly, but today it's called "synergy."

[Of course, it's not limited to golf; every time I see a book plugged on TV, I check to see whether the publishers are connected corporately to the broadcast station; it seems to happen about 80 percent of the time.]

In my own case, there were two groups of people who were especially worried about these conflicts ... golf writers and golf architects.  Could possibly some of them have a conflict of interest in pointing out mine?  None of the readers had any problem with it; it was just the guys who thought they had something to lose because I was biased.  Ron Prichard was one of the most vocal, incidentally; George Peper shared his "letter to the editor" with me, chock full of accusations and inaccuracies.

Every golf writer I know has friends and favorites among golf architects, and writes about them with a high degree of bias without mentioning a personal relationship.

When I was writing, I covered my tail partly by going out of my way to occasionally pick on some of my favorite architects, and I know Ron Whitten does the same.  Half the posts on GCA about Ron involve something negative he said about a favorite son here, and he is a friend of nearly every one of us.

Whitten has been hanging around golf course construction projects since Geoff Shackelford was in diapers.  He's seen a lot of people try their hand at it good and bad, and he wanted to be involved in a project with a lot of potential.  Who here would not take that chance, especially if they offered to pay you nicely for your input?  

Should he be disqualified from adding up the results at GOLF DIGEST for it?  Absolutely not -- I trust him a lot more than I'd trust any of you.

Should he disqualify the courses he consults on for consideration in the rankings?  I don't really care.  There are plenty of people waiting to jump all over him if one of them ever gets ranked, and then you could decide for yourself.  But a HYPOTHETICAL conflict of interest is just hot air.

In the end, it IS about integrity.  Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 09:54:28 PM by Tom_Doak »

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2004, 01:10:33 AM »
All that really matters is if a better golf course is created.  Conflicts of interest are not always bad, and oftentimes a critic involved in a project will go too far in the safe direction from lauding greatness.  Hopefully, this property in Wis. will be another great course for golfers to enjoy!  

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2004, 09:12:16 AM »
Gotta love the banner at the top of bunkershot.com that reads:

Become A Local Editor For Bunkershot.com
Do It For Fun Or To Complement Your Golf Business

I assume Matt is one of the fun bunch given his distaste for conflicts of interest ;)

Mike
A Casual Golfer
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 09:16:21 AM by Mike_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2004, 10:11:21 AM »
I would love an invitation to come down and observe the project going forth by Dr Hurdzan and Dana Fry.  I took Dr Hurdzan's construction techniques course way back before GolfClubAtlas or discussing gca was even cool ;) ;D   I enjoyed his humor and teaching style and always wanted to see him do his thing in the field.

As for Jeff Bradley's involvement, I sure hope he has some.  Once again, having exchanged e-mails with "Drummer" and never having had the pleasure to actually meet him or watch him work, I would be thrilled for such a chance.

Erin is below a place called "Holy Hill" which is a church-monastary on the highest hill in the area.  As a boy, my extended Italian family used to make a summer journey there every year.  It makes me wonder about the other golf course project slated for monastic entrepreneurial development.  Pete Dye was supposedly donating his time and talents to an effort by the Norbertines (I think) near LaCrosse in those high bluffs and coulees.  I guess it was a donation for a million years indulgence from purgatory for building all his Dyabolical stuff that gave his fellow man plenty of mental anquish. ::) ;D

Mr Kubly, do your expect any manna rain down on your project from the holy hill above Erin? ;)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 10:12:15 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2004, 10:19:19 AM »
Tom Doak has it about right.  For the record, I haven't heard any architect question the integrity of Ron, or for that matter others "playing both sides of the field." And, it has been going on so long that its accepted. Sure, as Tom points out, some gca types lament losing certain jobs to another competitor with greater name value, but that happens all the time anyway.

Why is it that some fields, like optometry, have developed with specifier- supplier (or in golf, design build) relationships that are almost unheard of in other fields?  Again, I theorize its because no one gets hurt by writers also being architects.  There might be a better review from someone who has faced real world problems than one who hasn't.  Have you ever heard a "Just say No" drug ad featuring someone who hasn't been there and came back?

And, as Tom points out, all writers have bias.  Ron pointed that out in his online review of Augusta Pines last week, saying he was partial to replica courses, having been involved in the design on one himself, for example.

As to conflict of interests, we have discussed bigger ones in course reviews here - the fact that many courses under review (particularly in regional magazines like NJ golfer) also have those courses as advertisers.  Again, we have to assume the integrity of those running the magazine until something happens to prove otherwise.  If it happens, we can vote with our dollars by not buying that magazine.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Ward

Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2004, 10:23:22 AM »
Mike H:

Let me straighten you out on something. My reviews on bunkershot.com are done without any payment. They are completely free. I also do not solicit or involved in any manner, shape or form with the drumming up of business for the site.

I do keep a wall between my comments and what the Website hopes to accomplish.

Do yourself a big favor Mike -- don't open your mouth until you know what the hell you're talking about.

This is the old turn around tactic. When a person raises a legitimate issue instead of dealing with the issue there are those who wish to turn it back on the person raising the point.

Mike -- send your vitae to Karl and the boys at 1600 Pennsy Avenue -- that style works great there! ;)


Tom Doak:

Please -- enough of the Biblical references and all that other related BS!

My point was NEVER about the folks named -- Ron Whitten
included -- being anything less than honorable people. It's not about the person it's about the standing / credibility of the publication.

Tom -- Digest proclaims itself the key magazine in the industry. Let's accept that for the sake of argument. When people write under their banner I do think there's a responsibility to the reader that the people doing the reviewing have some degree of meaningful separation from those doing the designing, building of the courses.

When someone is "chief architecture critic" for such a publication I would like to get from that person the fullest range of comments without me, the reader, having to wonder has the critic actually been on the payroll of the people he is supposed to be reviewing. Even recusing oneself does not shake the possibility that a future review may be tilted or slanted in the favor of the relatinship that existed previously.

The problem in the golf industry is that sometimes people value the relationships more than the broader issues at hand. The average reader doesn't know who was holding a cocktail glass next to other key bigwigs in the industry.

I'm not naive or a fool Tom. I fully understand that relationships develop throughout one's lifetime. Nothing wrong with that. I do expect that people who critique keep a reasonable distance so that their professional standing -- whether directly conflicted or just the perception -- is not an issue.

I'll say this again -- if you want to be an umpire (critic) that's fine -- you can't play the game as a player at the same time.


Jeff B:

The issue has merit -- OK, so it's not life and death but for people who want their work assessed without complications it would be helpful if the magazines took a clear stand. If the issue of $$ then pay the critics more or simply tell them to take their pursuit of design / consulting totally outside the magazine.

Paul Turner:

Please help me understand how a 1-10 checklist equates with one's function as chief architectural critic, while at the same time, having a paid consulting role with active architects. Paul -- appreciate the sniping but you need to come up and smell the coffee.


 

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2004, 10:56:07 AM »
Mike H:

Let me straighten you out on something. My reviews on bunkershot.com are done without any payment. They are completely free. I also do not solicit or involved in any manner, shape or form with the drumming up of business for the site.

Thanks for confirming that you are one of the fun bunch, just as I suspected.

I do keep a wall between my comments and what the Website hopes to accomplish.

To build such a wall and not peak over or around it undoubtedly requires a significant amount of integrity.

Do yourself a big favor Mike -- don't open your mouth until you know what the hell you're talking about.

This is not unprecedented.

This is the old turn around tactic. When a person raises a legitimate issue instead of dealing with the issue there are those who wish to turn it back on the person raising the point.

Mike -- send your vitae to Karl and the boys at 1600 Pennsy Avenue -- that style works great there! ;)

No smiley face can remove the wound caused by a comparison to Karl Rove, whether warranted or not.


Tom Doak:

Please -- enough of the Biblical references and all that other related BS!

I would suggest not playing in inclement weather for the next several days.

Kindest regards, really.

Mike
A Casual Golfer
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2004, 11:17:02 AM »
Tom Doak,

I do not think it was just writers and architects that had a problem with you ranking and writing for Golf Magazine.  Golfers have mentioned the conflict and some who have played Stonewall felt it did not deserve a top 100 ranking, and that the only reason it made it there was because of your involvement in the process. Whether that is fair or not it is certainly a legitimate concern, and it is not just an issue with those in the business but it is a broader issue that touches the regular golfer.  Now you said none of the readers had a problem with it, that seems like a very bold statement that can not be supported, or possibly golf Magazine did a survey and I am not aware of it.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2004, 11:49:24 AM »
As a member of a "typical"Hurzdan Fry course (cited frequently as one of their best to date) and having played some of their other ones, I find it difficult to not call them out on a major flaw in their design and construction.

The big, flashy bunkers that permeate and stylistically represent much of the H/F product simply don't work. They play very poorly and are considerably difficult to maintain. The steep fingers almost always lend themselves to plugging and those shots that don't, usually sit up half-plugged....all of which leads to at least a 1.5 stroke penalty. The bottoms of such bunkers are usually too thin(from sand raked up to fingers) and hard-baked resulting in poor conditions for any bunker-play artists.

Their "bunkerwol" product has nearly completely disintegrated and is practically worthless after a few years. Thus, nearly all of our aesthetically-beautiful bunkers need major construction repair and hopefully, redesign.

  I do understand Dana Fry is a "great guy" but shouldn't he be held considerably respondsible for such a failure? Isn't there some form of design responsibility that should be shouldered by their firm?

  Don't get me wrong, I essentially like their design. Yet, the playability factors are paramount for me and I can't give them any form of ringing endorsement.

   As for the debate over the "conflict-of-interest" issue, sin't it true that only rarely do journalists EVER follow strict ethical practices unless their publications demand it (i.e post Foster Winans at the WSJ). IMHO, Whitten is somewhat conflicted and does exhibit some bias from time-to-time that follows his wallet and ongoing project relationships.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2004, 07:17:29 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2004, 11:57:21 AM »
My gosh - check out the big brain on Shivas.

All this from a man known to mix Gatorade with Jack Daniels so he can dehydrate and rehydrate at the same time.  

I'm just proud to know him.

Mike
A Casual Golfer
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2004, 12:02:44 PM »
When someone is "chief architecture critic" for such a publication I would like to get from that person the fullest range of comments without me, the reader, having to wonder has the critic actually been on the payroll of the people he is supposed to be reviewing. Even recusing oneself does not shake the possibility that a future review may be tilted or slanted in the favor of the relatinship that existed previously.

The problem in the golf industry is that sometimes people value the relationships more than the broader issues at hand. The average reader doesn't know who was holding a cocktail glass next to other key bigwigs in the industry.

Matt,

In reality, Ron sips cocktails with all of us, as a part of getting access to us for better information on behalf of the reader.  And, technically,  I doubt he is under any contract to HF - he is more likely under contract to the Owner directly.  Overall, his ongoing relationships with all of us influence his critiques more than anythng.  He does seem to do a great job of writing in the context of how the course was meant to be.  

For example, he gave my Bent Tree in Council Bluffs, Iowa a good review, knowing its low price and low budget.  Colbert Hills, which by all accounts is a better course, got a mediocre review as failing the "playability for all" test.  A mixture of great to average (Ron rarely pans anything outright, but you can read between the lines) reviews hasn't affected my relationship with him.  If you can't take the heat, you stay out of the architectural kitchen.  There are a few archies who have let bad reviews taint press relationships, but for the most part, we need Ron and other critics more than they need us.

I respect that he has a job to do.  I do think GD has it about right - he certainly shouldn't review his own courses, and should probably disclose his relationship with Steven Kaye or H/F in any future reviews of their work, which I'm sure he'll do.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2004, 12:13:27 PM »
Dave,

I guess we are getting way off topic here but I must say being in journalism does not necessarily give one special insight into conflict of interest.  the average person can understand it just as well, probably better than the professionals.  You can write a book on it, and debate it every which way, but it still isn't that easy to dismiss some of the things we common folk see going on, and I guess it is just to be expected tht the professionals just think we are too simple and dumb to understand it any way.  Now pass me a gatorade and bourbon, and let's watch some Nascar!

JakaB

Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2004, 12:45:09 PM »
I see conflicts everyday on this site when even our esteemed Shivas writes about conflict....lots and lots of words...and only mentions the magazines that he does not get financial and spiritual benifit from.....This is a Golfweek site...and you can smell it to high heaven on this thread.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 12:46:11 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

JakaB

Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2004, 01:05:46 PM »
Shivas,

I don't buy that for a second...please explain to me why the rating panel of Golfweek is so damn interested in every hack being able to play every course in the world...the fair fairies as I like to call them...when Golf Digest concentrates on shot value and even requires their raters to achieve a certain level of ball striking themselves....a standard 98% of the golfers in the world can't even reach..    Your logic is not backed up by the very issue at hand.....

JakaB

Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2004, 01:09:55 PM »
Dave,

Take a look through the latest Golfweek of 10.9-16.04 it reads like People Magazine for the country club set....who really cares what's the name of the 50-foot Viking "Bill Three" flaunts his wealth from...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 01:15:22 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

JakaB

Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2004, 01:40:56 PM »
Dave,

I don't want to piss off Brad Klein anymore than the rest of you guys....and I'm uncomfortable every time I get near that line of conversation....I just wish you guys would give the same respect to Ron Whitten.....when you only included Ron in your argument and gave Brad a pass I smelled a rat.....sorry....but I am sick and tired of the Whitten and Golf Digest bashing that goes on on this site.....as a matter of fact I'm sick of any opinion not offered by Golfweek to be considered as stupid and the ramblings of Joe Sixpack.   That last issue of Golfweek stands on its own my friend..it can not be defended.   I guess that is what happens when Brad gets a week off...

JakaB

Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2004, 02:30:14 PM »
I see I am overmatched here so I'm going to have to start a new thread so maybe someone else can help me wretch from my gut that what can't find my brain...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 04:05:35 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

Matt_Ward

Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2004, 03:01:04 PM »
Mike H:

I have to apologize -- to force you to work with Karl and the boys at 1600 Pennsy Ave is a fate worse than death. Grant me a mea culpa for that part of my comments. ;D

Gents:

The issue is not about Ron Whitten -- a thoroughly capable writer / author and honorable person. It is the arrangement Golf Digest has made.

Golf Digest was started by Bill Davis to be fresh and news oriented about the game we play. The magazine goes to great lengths to tell readers that it is the most circulated publication in the game and that what it says should matter or be of interest to readers. Digest has taken very clear and public stands on a range of issues over the years like slow play and the like and I applaud the magazine when it has taken a proactive role.

Readers have an expectation that when someone is tabbed "chief architectural critic" they will get someone clearly separated from those he / she is reviewing.

The ratings aspect is indeed a very competitive and much watched situation throughout the industry. All of the key courses and architects are hoping that their creative product will be noticed and for those rare birds even highlighted among the very elite. I can understand anyone's angst if they believe the process is not a level playing field.

I'm also not browbeating the relationships people develop with those in the golf industry. Clearly, people will get to know people and some / much of the information that comes out later in articles stems from those contacts. But, it's a far bigger issue when people earn dollars from those whose product will either be reviewed or be compared / contrasted in their "official" position as chief critic.

The process for such ratings needs to be very clear without having people float between one camp and the other at will.

Digest made an arrangement that clearly serves Ron and may even serve the magazine -- although frankly, I believe a magazine of standing loses when it allows its credibility to be marginalized, if not thrown out the window.

When I read a restaurant or movie review or even golf equipment review I am TRUSTING that the person who wrote the piece doesn't have a connection -- real or perceived -- with the very things being reviewed. If I have to wonder everytime I read something from a noted source (I consider Digest to be one!) then I lose all interest in what it has to say because clearly the separation that makes reviews so powerful is lost.

What's so funny about Digest is the detailed code of conflict statutes they throw in front of their panelists, but somehow forget about what happens inside their own house.

The situation for me is a clear one -- the magazine can pay the person a solid salary and their expenses so that they can fulfill their duties for the critics role. If that figure is not good enough the person in that position can either live with that number or decide to move into the front lines of course development without maintaining his former bully pulpit as chief critic.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2004, 03:07:27 PM »
Matt,

I do hate to sound harsh, but should you reveal that you were once a GD panelist, and are no more, presumably from some disagreement on rating methods or what not.

As a reader of a noted source (You!) I think I should have the right to know if any connections - past and present - affect your viewpoint, no? ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2004, 03:22:15 PM »
Quote
Paul Turner:

Please help me understand how a 1-10 checklist equates with one's function as chief architectural critic, while at the same time, having a paid consulting role with active architects. Paul -- appreciate the sniping but you need to come up and smell the coffee.

It was off topic.  I was just surprised that as "Chief Architectural Critic" you would use a massaged version of the Doak scale without any nod towards its creator.  Why not come up with your own scale?

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Matt_Ward

Re:Hurdzan/Fry Course in Wisonsin
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2004, 03:42:44 PM »
Jeff --

I have no problem in mentioning my previous tie to Digest as a non-paid / non-conflict-of-interest rater. I did it for 17 years and provided the magazine with a ton of FREE course reviews from throughout the nation. I came on board at 27 and frankly they got much more out of me than 80% or more of the people who are panelists.

Let me also mention my dismissal from Digest as a panelist had to do with a course nominated for Best New a few years ago that was taken from the actual year it opened (hence the name "best new") and then moved to a second year for consideration -- no timely explanations were made by those in charge -- the course was simply moved. I highlighted the erroneous situation initially privately and then publicly (when nothing happened). Key people within Digest didn't like the idea that the process was exposed and simply let me go. It's the old whistle-blower story -- blame the whistle blower and fail to come clean on the mess exposed.

Let me also state that the course was moved to a second year was not awarded anything that year. Ron himself even stated the course in question was the best fun he had in playing in 2002. I stated it's amazing raters could be that out of touch. I also agree with Ron on the nature of the course being so much fun! What's even more funny is that people on the panel had played a course that finished high in the Best New just up the road from the course in question. How the numbers between the two could be so far apart is truly mind boggling.

The magazine took umbrage at my lack of "loyalty" which is funny because I'm the guy who provided them free information from all the trips that I paid out of my own pocket for 17 years. Instead of dealing with the issues presented they were more concerned with having the process itemized in a public forum.

Jeff -- it's a very clever tactic that when issue "A" is on the table people interject a completely separate and irrelevant topic to somehow throw aspersions on what was originally posted. The Bush people do this very well.

This is not at all about the honorable nature of people already mentioned because I view them no less as being honorable. It's about the process of critiques free from real or perceived conflicts. I have stated that publications owe their readers some sense of being free of conflicts that may call into question their objectivity / credibility. I have always believed that the mission of Bill Davis was to give golfers the kindof useful information they could rely upon.

I'm a firm believer that if you have a clear and defensible process ... the outcomes, even if people disagree, can be seen for what they are without the slightest degree of angst that some "connection" or some other element was at work.

People can judge my motivations for what they are.

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