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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2004, 05:24:43 AM »
Why am I grumpy tonight?

On GCA there is a lot of tunnelvision, many tend to criticise anything modern, except the few that work in a certain style. Most of this is done with the person's nose firmly turned up, because he feels he knows more about golf than the so called "Joe six pack".

One of life's greatest lessons in learning is to understand what you don't know and that you don't know everything.

Ian, I too take exception to this statement, in fact, I think your "On GCA there is a lot of tunnelvision, many tend to criticise anything modern, except the few that work in a certain style." comment is for some unknown and arcane reasoning, more of a cop-out and excuse to back the shitty work of a fellow architect whom you may or may not even really know.

Ian, its O.K. to say its not your cup of tea. I'm sure Pat Ruddy won't give a Irish hoot, but my point is, and I hope that Jeff Mingay would agree with me, this isn't about creating a faux links but more or less using some artistic common sense to shape this beautiful looking and rolling ground to jive with its natural surrounds and beautiful backdrops, that was clay-capped because it used to be a land fill. It all looks, well, frankly more then a little contrived, and most definitely too manufactured for the look they were trying to acheive.  Also, don't be so enamored with the natural looking dune grasses that are covering those hideous-looking mounds. Instead, tell us what the ground is saying.

You bring up Seth Raynor.

I think he managed at least most of the time to get the holes, even with the contrived shaping of the greens and their surrounding complexes. He fit them to fit the land pretty decently. There were also a few times he actually may have not got it right. (The Yale Redan for example. Its a good hole, but it doesn't anyway represent a good Redan, like one would expect, or say The Creek's Biarritz which is surely not as interesting as the one at Yale or even the short-lived one at the Lido. (which, even with not as tremendous of a green as Yale's, may have been even better to the idea of what a Biarritz actually was--a hole which in the wind, a ball had to be played over a great hazard from not only the front, but the right and into the wind, thus pushing the ball back over to the green.)

Another thing, I can tell you that most everytime I have seen a shape of Raynor's hand, I get this sort of feeling that leaves a lasting impression in my mind--its unique and its different and its totally memorable. Can you actually say that you see that here in these images?

I also think towards to the end of his life, a lot of his work was in fact taking on more natrual and rugged shape and form. Look at that picture of The Biarritz at the Greenbriar from Daniel Wexler's Lost Links.

You bring-up Lido.

Lido was both conservative and a liberal in its form. It used a lot of what it needed, and it didn't use very what it didn't need. At least from the photos.

In an artistic sense, a salt-water-filled marsh was the canvas to build a golf course. Your not going to play under-water--your going to have to move dirt to create features that looked natural to the area.  I'm going to be so bold and tell you that of all of the courses that MacDonald built, from what I have seen in the images I have studied over the years, Lido was the most natural looking out of all of them.

Sand was dredged and pumped-in, and it was done in one of the most interesting manners--for 1915. (think about it Ian, that is 11 years shy of being a century ago when they started building her. An amazing feat for that time.) Another factor I think your forgetting is that for a course that was entirely created, it surely didn't look like it. Can you say that about Le zee I'lse de Montreal? (sp) Do you think it really looks all that Le Naturale'?

Again, to further prove my point........

Name me one true links golf course in Great Britain that has that much un-natural, man-made-looking mounding.  Have you seen that kind of mounding in any of the classic course you have been remodeling that was put there by the original architect? Realizing that many true links courses in GB do have some man-made looking features to them, this was more then likely because it was done at a time when men barely knew how to use a horse-drawn scraper, and certainly weren't going to be moving this many cubes using a shovel. Many of these features are because of some unknown reasoning that pot bunkers always took the shape of perfectly round.  I dare you to show me a picture of the Old Course circa 1915, where the bunkers were so perfect. I doubt you could find one.

The point of all of this is, for a unique and beautiful setting as le isle ze Montreal' (sp) is situated--looking like it could have been a magnificent canvas. Unfortunately from the pictures, it looks like its covered in repeticious-looking containment mounds that are blocking out many of the key elements of deception whose back drops more then likely had a lot to offer.

Just how perfectly round are those bunkers in the pictures? Have you ever seen Nature emulate that sort of perfect circumference without a single akward crease or crevise? What about the rough grass around them? Where is the look of the raw-rugged force of wind and nature that has shaped this wonderful links?

Or, is this simply just another poor and shoody attempt at building a golf course in Canada with the pristine conditioning with Augusta National in mind, and by a group of business men/developers that were enamored by Mr. Ruddy's accent?

Honestly, I would have thought being around all of those tremendous Irish links would have given Pat Ruddy something to speak about in his work. Instead, what I see along with 4 site visits--a golf course that looks like it was designed from a topo map in Dublin after a visit to Sean McGinnty's Pub.

(Can we just blame it on some bad whiskey please and go about our business?)

Simply put, I would rather travel to Great Britain to play the real thing then this shoddy-looking facsimile. It just doesn't inspire any happy, happy/joy, joy thoughts with-in. After all, isn't that what great golf is all about? In fact, I don't even want to go back and look at the pictures because I might get a bad case of the winds. (gastro-reflex from my behind)

But, if your willing to buy into all of these pictures and the tougher then tough attitude it extrolls, even in the rain; I have some wonderful Ted Robinson courses built on land fills to show you.

Don't forget to steal the barf bag from the airline that brings you down here!

Mike_Sweeney

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2004, 05:37:41 AM »
Jason,

Comparison between Whistling Straits and Tallgrass is interesting.

If I recall correctly, Gil basically cut (sunk) the centre of the property and filled (raised) the perimeter to facilitate drainage and create some topographic relief at a relatively flat site. The result is subtle, and classy. You can't really tell where construction begins and ends at Tallgrass.  

In other words, even though some significant earthwork was done at Tallgrass, the course melds with the surrounding landscape much more attractively than the "dunes" at Whistling Straits do. For my tastes, Tallgrass is a much more attractive course as a result.

I presume it's quite easy to see where construction begins and ends at Ruddy's Montreal course, too.

This matter is entirely subjective.    

Gentleman,

I have been a defender of Tallgrass here before, mainly against our Jersey golfer. Here is a link to a picture of TG 15th hole, which includes the one side of the "boomerang" effect that was created by Hanse (can't pull in this picture).

http://www.golfattallgrass.com/index.html

Here is a picture of the Delalio sod farm across the street. The Delalio's were the original owners and they converted part of the farm to Tall Grass.



Any questions on where dirt was moved ?  ::) I don't even think a Midwestern guy such as JakaB could find a flatter piece of land. Why beat up on Pat Ruddy for creating what the owners flew him over from Ireland to create, a faux links course for the 97% of the population that does not read this website and will never play in Ireland.

PS Here is Twisted Dune, which is well received here. What is the difference ?

« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 05:48:39 AM by Mike Sweeney »

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2004, 07:26:12 AM »
Could Pat Ruddy be in line for designing (at least two of) the toughest golf courses in the world then - along with European Club?
@EDI__ADI

ian

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2004, 09:21:26 AM »
Tommy,

For what it is worth, I enjoyed your reply, especially the comments on Raynor.

There are currently more shitty architects than good, on that you an I agree, but I just think they get judged very very harshly. I struggle with the fact that only two people on this post have seen that course, but the criticism of what Ruddy did was strong, considering he had to receive fill as part of the project. My greatest struggle is that sometimes a project comes with circumstance beyond the architects control, and architects are forced to design accordingly. Architects can walk away from some (and we do), but architects still have to run a business.

Does it look natural, of course not; but how could a landfill look natural by its finished profile. Is it a good solution to a difficult problem? Potentially yes. We don't know.

"Name me one true links golf course in Great Britain"

How is this relevant?

"The point of all of this is, for a unique and beautiful setting as le isle ze Montreal"

You mean a unique beautiful landfill?

"Or, is this simply just another poor and shoody attempt at building a golf course in Canada with the pristine conditioning with Augusta National in mind"

Its a landfill, I don't think Augusta ever came to mind.

"Instead, what I see along with 4 site visits"

Do you know this as fact?

about our business?)

"Simply put, I would rather travel to Great Britain to play the real thing then this shoddy-looking facsimile"

So would everybody, but guess what 50% of golfers can not afford to travel to play golf. What is wrong with something unique to the Montreal markey, and to let the market decide on how successful it will be.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 09:23:07 AM by Ian Andrew »

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2004, 09:52:50 AM »
Man... I have to set the record straight. I've not critcized Mr. Ruddy. And I've not passed any jugdment on this golf course, other than to say that in the posted photos it clearly appears to have been an attempt to mimic the look of a links, again.

Ian: what does having to deal with excessive fill material have to do with creating this aesthetic?

"Don't be a p@#$y?" - I think that's the first time anyone has ever said that to me in the midst of discussing golf architecture, Jason. Interesting...
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2004, 10:02:58 AM »
Mike Sweeney,

What's interesting about Gil's Tallgrass are the features he created on a flat site - like that "cliff" type feature to the left of the green in the photo at the course's website.

There really aren't any features at Tallgrass that were shaped to mimic dunes, are there. I think the shaping at Tallgrass is very creative.  
jeffmingay.com

ian

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2004, 10:14:41 AM »
Jeff,

They got paid to take in garbage, the more that goes in, the more the landowner has money in his pocket. The more trucks that come in, the more finacially viable the business. He had to place all that fill, so where else would you suggest. The only other alternative is a giant drumlin shape typical of a landfill. Is that better? Remember this site sides onto a highway and looks at urban sprawl.

I just don't get why this is a bad solution. I think our Osprey deserves more crticism than this project, the links look was not nessassary. I will also add it remains the most popular course we have done according to public play surveys.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 02:18:24 PM by Ian Andrew »

Matt_Ward

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2004, 10:18:58 AM »
Mike Sweeney:

The difference between Tallgrass and Twisted Dune lies beyond the "how it looks" aspect you focus upon and more "how it plays."

I never said there aren't any interesting holes at Tallgrass but the nature of the site at Tallgrass came from a dead flat potato field. Gil did provide a number of key holes -- I'm a huge fan of the concluding holes but frankly, your grasping at straws if you think Tallgrass is on par with Twisted Dune.

The general shotmaking requirements at Twisted Dune are much more varied and intense. Mike -- I salute your dogged defense of Tallgrass but I'm not buying. ;D


blasbe1

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2004, 10:53:41 AM »

"Don't be a p@#$y?" - I think that's the first time anyone has ever said that to me in the midst of discussing golf architecture, Jason. Interesting...

Jeff:

My apologies on that, I was a little hot under the collar after the ball game.  I hope you heard my actual point, however.

 

henrye

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2004, 11:47:19 AM »
Ian.  You make a great point about Osprey Heathlands.  I have played there often and it is absolutely one of the best laid out courses around.  The strength of the course is in the shaping of the fairways, the layout, the bunker placements and green complexes.  I have never heard a negative comment from anyone on these design issues, but and it's a big but, I have heard many criticize the fake dunes there  - a la ile de Montreal.  

I don't think you deserve criticim in that there was an attempt to emulate (at least partially) a links design at Osprey.  The criticism is simply the "fake looking" dunes.  Any chance you guys might get hired to reshape those dunes to fit in a bit better.


Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2004, 11:53:24 AM »
I do think your giving Gil a free pass, while criticising others for the same concept (regardless of the fact that his shaping may be better).

Ian,

The above comment makes absolutely no sense to me. I mean, if Gil's shaping is better, how am I giving him a "free pass"?

Plus, the concept at Tallgrass was clearly not to emulate dunesland.

Again, I don't understand the point you're trying to make.
jeffmingay.com

ian

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2004, 02:18:02 PM »
Jeff,

Sorry, my mistake. I went and looked at the photo above and realized it is Twisted Dune and not Tallgrass. Please ignore the last comment.

Just a question Jeff, is your main dislike the containment mounding?

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2004, 02:54:02 PM »
Ian,

I just think there are more interesting, unique ways to separate holes, screen unsightly views, and utilize excessive fill material than to create dunes-like mounds along the periphery of golf holes. Particularly on Montreal Island.

That's not to say Mr. Ruddy's Montreal course is no good. I'm sure it's fun to play. Or that perhaps he just followed his client's request to create a pseudo-links. That's probably what happened, 'cause Pat Ruddy is considered a links expert my many people.

That's all fine and well. But we're discussing the art of golf course design and construction here, right. And, on that note, it's interesting that Tallgrass was injected into this discussion. I think Gil did some very creative things there, to create topographic relief, facilitate drainage, screen unsightly views, and perhaps "lose" some excess fill material.

Tallgrass has a very unique, pleasant look.    
jeffmingay.com

ian

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2004, 03:32:27 PM »
Jeff,

You said: "I just think there are more interesting, unique ways to separate holes, screen unsightly views, and utilize excessive fill material than to create dunes-like mounds along the periphery of golf holes. Particularly on Montreal Island."

Please pass on some of the ideas, because I'm not sure what alternatives you have concidering this is a landfill project.


In regards to your comments on Hanse: I really like the sand quarry that Gil created by the barn on the 4th hole at French Creek. He created a very natural clever little par three that looked like it was routed over a sand quarry when it was really a borrow area. I give him full marks for imagination. I have not seen Tallgrass, and assume the photos on the web site do not do it justice.



frank_D

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2004, 03:58:17 PM »
brother matt kardash

just curious - but did you come across any stone structures on the course ?

[they would be stones piled upon one another from largest to smallest in an obelisk shape not more than three feet high at various locations on the course]  

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2004, 04:22:45 PM »
Ian,

Hopefully someday we'll be jointly hired - a la Doak and Nicklaus at Sebonack - to build a course on a landfill.

Then I can share my ideas with you, promise  ;D
jeffmingay.com

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #66 on: October 19, 2004, 05:10:09 PM »
Frank,

wow, I'm really thinking hard here. I'm not sure, but now that you mention it, it does trigger something in my brain. There might have been some of those stone piles.



From what I know, the owner hired Pat Ruddy after he travelled to Ireland and played the European club. He was so impressed with the course that he hired Mr. Ruddy. I remember the owner talking about wanting a course that wasn't expensive to maintain like most modern courses.

And what Ian is saying does make sense. It's hard for you all who haven't seen the place to appreciate just how much garbage they dumped on this site. When you drive by the course on the adjacent highway the whole property looks like the himalayas. After a while it must get hard to find place to put all this garbage.



As a side note, Jack Nicklaus' firm and other unamed firms visited the site before Mr. Ruddy was ever hired and all thought the site was unsuitable for golf.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

ian

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2004, 05:56:28 PM »
Matt,

I did my thesis on recovering a landfill for a golf course. The idea of using a fresh landfill site is baffling, concidering all the immediate consolidation that will come. Landfills sink at very uneven rates over the entire site. I assume they have floated the greens on top of geotextiles to take care of this, or have they placed the greens on a native grade?

Jeff,

I would be happy to work on any project with you except a landfill, but you already know that.

Matt,

I may be in Montreal really soon, I would love to meet you there to tour the course.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #68 on: October 19, 2004, 06:11:44 PM »
Ian,

Need a translator, eh?  ;D. My french isn't amazing, but I could be of some assistance.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 07:36:09 PM by matt kardash »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

frank_D

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2004, 02:16:07 PM »
...now that you mention it...there might have been some of those stone piles.

brother matt kardash

well i guess i'll have to make another trip to montreal and build more - i purposely put them in out-of-play areas - like one on the very top of a large mound bisecting the 12th and 10th - but visable from the 12th tee

PS - anyone making a trip for the first time should leave room in their schedule to also visit the rest of montreal - especially downtown which has hundreds of years of history to offer - NOTE they are pretty touchy about the language so learn to ask "parlez vous englaise" instead of just talking in english to someone - everyone speaks english but they don't want to accept it as their first language - until you get to toronto


Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #70 on: October 20, 2004, 03:21:24 PM »
Frank
yeah I can really picture them now. How many of them are there?

And I don't think people are THAT touchy about speaking english here. If you go downtown it's almost rare that you even hear someone speak french.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #71 on: October 20, 2004, 09:25:16 PM »
Ian, sorry to take so long to get back to this, but my time has been becoming more and more less as of late--a good thing.

Quote
Tommy,

For what it is worth, I enjoyed your reply, especially the comments on Raynor.

There are currently more shitty architects than good, on that you an I agree, but I just think they get judged very very harshly. I struggle with the fact that only two people on this post have seen that course, but the criticism of what Ruddy did was strong, considering he had to receive fill as part of the project. My greatest struggle is that sometimes a project comes with circumstance beyond the architects control, and architects are forced to design accordingly. Architects can walk away from some (and we do), but architects still have to run a business.

Ian, In the scale of my scope, many will call it biased, pig-headed, stubborn, single-minded and even one-dimensional. Still in my opinion, to be able to be gifted and given the ability to design golf courses for a living, that one do it with not only the integrity but complete understanding of the truest principles of the Game.

One can be a lover of golf history, even proudly wear it on his shoulder sleeve* but if he's not creating in the same vein; making excuses for "a different time/a different age" well, it just doesn't cut it with me, therfore would not warrant any praise nor accolades.

(*a list of golf architects that do this can be provided to YOU if needed)

No, I haven't seen the course, and I'm I have no problem agreeing with you regarding the accuracy to being able to judge the shot-making and strategies in photos, but I disagree with you in regards to looking at something in a photo and being able to not notice the style or certain features that may or may not "excite the senses."

I have said this for years, man-mad massive containment by way of mounds will be the ruination of Golf. People will only voice their opinion by just not showing-up to play there. If its $100.00 now, I can assure you in five short years it will be no more then $50.00--no one will want to play a course like this once the newness has work off, unless its a steal of a bargain.  That is what I see in these pictures at Le is'le ze mon cherie amour Montreal.

No one was putting a gun to the head of Pat Ruddy and telling him to build all sorts of semi-symmetrical mounds of containment and then falsely calling it "dune-like."


Quote
Does it look natural, of course not; but how could a landfill look natural by its finished profile. Is it a good solution to a difficult problem? Potentially yes. We don't know.

Are you trying to say that the containment mounding of this course is actually capped mounds of trash?  If not, are you telling me that its easier to create symmetrical, round mounds then it is to create those that are more aesthetically and artistically pleasing, and if needed at all?  There is nothing more in this world I would like to do then get with Ian Andrew and create a golf course on such a horrible piece of property such as this.

I think we could create something pretty special--for a dump! ;)


Quote
"Name me one true links golf course in Great Britain"

How is this relevant?

Well, if your creating a faux links--when in Scotland.....

Quote
"The point of all of this is, for a unique and beautiful setting as le isle ze Montreal"

You mean a unique beautiful landfill?

Well Ian, "One man's golf course is another man's dump." Or something like that......

"Or, is this simply just another poor and shoody attempt at building a golf course in Canada with the pristine conditioning with Augusta National in mind"

Quote
Its a landfill, I don't think Augusta ever came to mind.

Ian, It would look to me that the Augusta-effect is in full bloom in Montreal. (I'm talking about the impeccable conditioning that makes a "Faux Links" look exactly that--Fake. Synthetic.

Hey, I got an idea! Why not just put in some Field Turf and make it a year round course! Just scrape away the snow!


Quote
"Instead, what I see along with 4 site visits"

Do you know this as fact?

Ian, I don't, but it sure does look like it.

Quote
about our business?)


Ian,
Have you ever been to a Faux Links course thats on sandy dunes just off of the ocean? I have, and its called Sandpines--Golf on the Oregon Dunes. That's another course that looks like it had four site visits, and its not much different looking then this one.


Quote
"Simply put, I would rather travel to Great Britain to play the real thing then this shoddy-looking facsimile"

So would everybody, but guess what 50% of golfers can not afford to travel to play golf. What is wrong with something unique to the Montreal markey, and to let the market decide on how successful it will be.

Ian, I got an even better idea, find us a spot on a trash dump on the other side of Montreal and we'll create a course that will make people from that other side, travel over to it! I guarantee it. No Field Turf though. I only want real grass! We'll do it cheaper, better and make it more affordable to play.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 09:37:27 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #72 on: October 20, 2004, 09:38:58 PM »
Man... I have to set the record straight. I've not critcized Mr. Ruddy. And I've not passed any jugdment on this golf course, other than to say that in the posted photos it clearly appears to have been an attempt to mimic the look of a links, again.

Ian: what does having to deal with excessive fill material have to do with creating this aesthetic?

"Don't be a p@#$y?" - I think that's the first time anyone has ever said that to me in the midst of discussing golf architecture, Jason. Interesting...

Jeff, Why back down? This doesn't seem like you. Why not just say what you think, which was the line which you were originally taking?

henrye

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2004, 10:30:10 PM »
Tommy.  I have to come to Ian's defence here.  While I agree with you that there is a distinctly negative visual aspect to the "symmetrical, round mounds" you should know that Ian's firm has created a few faux links up here and one with very similar mounding which just happens to be an excellent course.  I guess it's begs an interesting question - can a course which is brilliantly laid out, with well placed bunkers, interesting fairways and strong greens be considered a good/great course if it's fairways are surrounded by "symmetrical, round mounds"?  From a visual perspective - looking at the course from pictures - few would believe it to be possible, but experience tells me otherwise.

Jeff.  You mentioned Osprey and Eagle's Nest (both works of Ian's firm) and Glencairn.  Do you think these are weak courses?  How would you have done them differently?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2004, 01:44:38 AM »
Henry,
Just to reiterate, I'm not discounting the possibilities of Pat Ruddy's le is'le de Montreal, or any of Ian's courses as being really enjoyable and fun courses to play. This which I think you do grasp is all about artistic technique, and generally, good taste.

You can cover it all up in these whispy grasses, but underneth it are the outlines of a really ugly body.