[Mike_Sweeney]

There is always talk about East Coast bias on here and it seems as if Donald Steel suffers from a reverse East Coast Bias. The only courses that he has done in The States are on the East Coast, and yet we never hear about him here at GCA. I know they are private courses, but many here seem to find ways onto those courses.

Yes, there are some complaints here about the work he has done on Open courses for the R&A, but let's tell it like it is, the treehouse would probably even pick on Bill Coore if he made changes to those courses.   The only work I have seen of his is the renovation of Enniscrone which was very well received by the local members, and while Enniscrone suffers from its NorthWest Ireland location, it now regularly pops on Top XYZ list overseas. I never saw Enniscrone pre-Steel.

Carnegie Abbey in Newport, The Vineyard Club on Martha's Vineyard and the one on coastal South Carolina all sound and seem intriging to me. So what is the real deal with Donald Steele ? Is his work overshadowed here because of its East Coast location ? Should he pump out the PR to get more recognition ?

[Mike Hendren]

Mike,

Two words:  The Eden.

Mike
A Casual Golfer

[Scott_Burroughs]

Mike,

In the last few years, there has been a decent amount of talk on Steel's U.S. courses, particularly Cherokee Plantation (SC, the one with the $1M initiation fee), and Carnegie Abbey (which was an AOTD).  Of what I've noticed, Vineyard Club has received less talk, but there has been some, such as when it's holes were featured in a bunker thread about fairway bunker fronts being mowed at fairway height vs. rough not allowing balls to enter.

Another Steel project in the U.S. which should be close to completion is the private Primland course in the mountains of SW Virginia.  Supposedly millions were spent on one hole alone (I played golf with a guy who worked on it).  Like Cherokee, it is part of a hunting preserve, although the hunting at Primland is open to the public and has been open for a couple of years now.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Do, please, spell his name correctly:

Donald Steel

[Tom_Doak]

Mr. Steel's work is a very interesting study.

There is some perception that his work should be grouped with the "minimalists" like Bill Coore and myself, and there have been at least three jobs for which we were the three candidates.  However, I find his style VERY different from my own ... it's much more spartan in nature, with very small, sharp-edged bunkers, and a lot of greens on fill pads with mounding around them.  It looks more like Jerry Matthews' work than Bill Coore's, although the detailing is very sophisticated.

His routings make good use of the ground [Redtail in particular] so he can build his courses without moving earth in the fairways, and for reasonable budgets.  Of course he learned by building courses in the UK in the 1970's and 1980's when they were working on shoestring budgets, so he had to be a minimalist.

Ironically, though, his low-budget designs have appealed primarily to very high-end clients who like the cachet of having an English designer.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Do, please, spell his name correctly:

Donald Steel

   I knew that.  Seeing it wrong so many times is messing with my head.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I called Primland, and the course won't open until spring of 2006, even though contruction started in July 2003.

Steel has pictures of his ongoing/recently completed work here:

http://www.donaldsteel.com/Bulletin2004LOW.pdf

[BCrosby]

Has anyone played the mysterious Cherokee Plantation?

Thoughts?

[Mike_Young]

Bob,
I have played it.

[BCrosby]

I hear you loud and clear.

Bob

[Paul_Turner]

Anyone played his Palmerston couses art Brockett Hall?  I hear it's really good.

I wonder, after reflection, what he thinks of his own holes on the Eden?

[Andy Levett]

I'm sure Donald Steel is one of the good  guys.
The only original course of his I've played, Skibo, appears to utilise the best features of a site blessed with great views rather than great turf or topography.
I never played Wallasey nor the Jubilee before DS's changes but they clearly appear to be an improvement for his work.
I'd love it if he  would share his thoughts here.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

His work at Redtail is quite solid, as Tom mentions. The property was not the easiest and the routing is the winning aspect. The greens were far more severe than the work I have seen of Steel and Mackenzie in the UK.

Clearing they have a knack for finding some good holes and the Kintyre course shows that with its eighth hole.

I just returned from Bovey Castle - formerly Manor House GC - the J.F. Abercromby course that Tom Mackenzie did the renovation for. I was impressed by the detail work in the greens and bunkers.

The constant theme of sod-walled bunkers does counter the minimalist label, but I guess they earn that with their lack of earth moving.

[TEPaul]

Ben:

Actually the routing at Red Tail given the ground was not hard at all---the land and the drive coming in sort of just led them along in a very natural progression. The property was formerly a horse farm and the budget was really low. He had two clients (one in particular) who's a truly savy man and a real quick study. There were a couple of complications like how exactly to do #13, #18, #8. Some thought #9 was sort of odd but that's about all that was reasonably left after #8. They probably hired Steel because the two guys have always spent time and had strong connections in Lyford Cay (Nassau) where there're a lot of English and European connections and Steel was very reasonable fee-wise with Red Tail. It's the first course he did in North America.

[pdrake]

Having played all of Mr Steel's US based courses, I have great respect for his work.  He is right up there with Crenshaw/Coore....I am really excited about his work at the Abaco Club (even though I have heard they were hit quite hard by one of the hurricanes)

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom,
I did not mean to imply that the finding the routing was hard, but that boiling the course around the ravines was not easy. They actually were not able to find 14 and it is widely credited to Chris Goodwin (one of the founders you mentioned). I think the reason for the choice of Steel was more about the appreciation for the same facets of golf.

I also resent the misinformation about Lyford Cay. It was founded by a fine Canadian and we are not English, nor European.  

P.S. I do not see what would have been difficult about 13? It is a fine hole and has the majority of bunkers on the property, but it would be one of the more obvious holes in the routing to me.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ben,

Interesting comment about 13. How is it "one of the obvious holes in the routing" in your view?

Elaborate, please.

Curious,

[TEPaul]

Ben:

I think I'm talking about 14, the hole over the ravine--I think that's the one that was a bit problematic. The hole Chris Goodwin likes to talk about is #2, the par 5. He said it only cost about $5,000 to build that one! Whatta you mean you resent the misinformation about Lyford Cay? Chris Goodwin has been going down there and has some real strong connections to Lyford for years--has some interests down there. I've known Chris Goodwin for about 25 years now. If anyone wants to start a golf club, they should start by talking to Chris Goodwin and his long time business partner and Red Tail partner John Drake.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Jeff,
It is the border of the ravine, so you knew the boundary and it wrapped well around the trees and up to a nice green site. It is a great hole of that length and is one of my favourites on the course, but you knew you were using that land and it made a lot of sense in the loop of the back nine.

Tom,
The 14th is correct and I think that is the one the I was told Goodwin designed - it is excellent - but Steel did not find it in his routing if my above source is correct.
Re: Lyford Cay, I was joking about your English and European reference when a Canadian founded it. I was both poking fun and waving the maple leaf flag - hence the smile!

Lastly, I agree re: starting a club, Redtail is near perfect as a golf club.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Ben, I'd be interested to know in greater detail your observations on Bovey Castle.  I played it some years ago as Manor House Hotel and it was perhaps not in the greatest state of health but enjoyable in a very laid-back way.  When I saw that it was to be overhauled for its new owners I was alarmed that some of the rough-and-ready elements of the design might disappear.  What did they do to the 1st hole, for instance?

[TEPaul]

Ben:

I know you were kidding about the English, Euros and Canadians and Lyford Cay--I just thought I'd act mock serious.  . Have you ever read a book called "The King's X" about the so-called "Bay Street Boys" of Nassau---the three guys who basically ran Nassau? It's about during and after WW2 when they had to send the Duke of Windsor out to Nassau to run the place because he was such a Germanphile he'd become embarrassing to England? One of the Bay Street Boys (perhaps one of the Canadians) sort of ran afoul of some apparent deal with Meyer Lansky over potential gambling rights on Hog Island (what present Paradise Island was then called) and he got murdered mysteriously at his home. Meyer Lanksy and the mafia was apparently behind it and the whole thing got sort of covered up as apparently the Duke knew about it.

I've gone down there to Lyford on and off for about 45 years now and whatever happened down there never really surprised me. If you want to hear a few OT off the wall Tom Paul stories I have a few pretty good ones from the old days at Lyford Cay. Played in that Lyford Cay member/guest a few times and that was always a trip. Only time I ever saw the old English or Nassau "lay day" which was a day off right in the middle of the tournamant. I guess it was because everyone had so much "fun" they figured they needed a day off (the "lay day") just to get some rest!

[Mike_Sweeney]

I seem to remember that I tried to get some Donald Steel discussion on here last year with almost no result.

Carnegie Abbey is rounded and voluptuous with lots of elevation changes, a few well-placed bunkers (playing very much larger than they are, Carnoustie and HCEG-style)and with really scary greens-firm, contoured and fast.

It for some reason has escaped being recognized for the very high quality gem it is.

But it's not C&C so that may make a difference on this board.

Rman,

I was lucky to play Newport CC again in 2003, and our caddy really said some great things about CA. It sounds like a cool atmosphere between the Monks and Prep school on the grounds. The short 280 yard par 4 finisher along the bay looked like a perfect match play #18 during the Wonderful World of Golf.

[TEPaul]

Did anyone happen to read that very interesting article about Donald Steel in the very last edition of the USGA's Golf Journal? Steel seems like a most interesting man---some very diverse thoughts and interests. Sounded like the Queen thought quite highly of him.

But we certainly have talked about Donald Steel on this website in the past---I distinctly remember it and also how a few of our contributors on this website from the other side had some lukeworm things to say about him---but some of those same contributors also had a few lukewarm things to say about Winston Churchill too---which can only mean one thing---they have their heads wedged!!    

[Steve Lapper]

 The Vineyard Club, by Steel, is really a wondeful surprise. His minimalist style coupled with acute respect for the property and terrain countours resulted in a very playable, yet tough all-organic course.
  Most of the land is rather flat, yet judicious mounding occurs on several holes and subtle elevation changes appear only where they appear natural. I was most impressed by his bunker work. Small, yet deadly efficient, pot bunkers appear throughout the par fours and fives and serve to direct the shot-maker to accurate decisions about challenging the greens. Almost all the doglegs have a critical bunker or bunker complex placed nearest the absolute risk-reward loci.
    Like C & C, this natural approach doesn't feel forced or artificial, but nowhere else do similarities exist, The greens lack the kind of large-scale movement any C & C fan has come to expect...instead they assume a Fazio or Rees like tiering. It isn't bad, mind you, just not as unique as other parts of the architecture.
   All-in-all, the course is a very enjoyable gem. It has elemets of sportiness and brutality that alternate well and produce a very balanced result.

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