"What Happened to the Revolution?"

[TEPaul]

"Patrick,
Did I leave my wedge in your bag?"

Look, MikeC, I've heard far too much about that devilish wedge of yours. Let me give you some advice about a club like that and it comes straight from the mouth of the great player/teacher Tommy Armour. Armour was a great friend of my Dad. He played with him most ever day in the winter for years. Back then Armour did a lot of teaching in the winter out at the Delray Beach C.C. He taught an awful lot of women including a lot of lady touring pros.

One day my father told a married cousin of his that he would take her out for a lesson with Armour. She was a good player but she was just terrified at the prospect of being watched by the great Tommy Armour. I went along that day to watch.

Armour was definitely an imposing figure in all kinds of ways but if he wanted to be he could be as charming, in a gruffish kind of way as you could possibly imagine.

He generally sat in a folding chair under an umbrella and just watched (generally with one of his many daily gin bucks nearby) and made the occasional comment.

When Dad's married cousin got in front of him she was tittering and fidgetting she was so nervous. Armour said; I'm Tommy Armour, what's your name?", and she giggled and tittered and told him. Armour said: I'm not going to hurt you, there's nothing to be nervous about".

When she relaxed a little Armour said; "Sarah, is there any golf club in that bag of yours you don't like for some reason?"

Sarah looked at him with surprise but seriousness and said; "Yes, Mr Armour, I don't like my pitiching wedge, matter of fact I hate my pitching wedge."

And so without saying another word, Tommy Armour slowly put down his gin buck, looked at Sarah for a few minutes with those ice blue eyes of his and he slowly got out of his chair, sauntered over to Sarah's bag, took one very large hand and started flicking golf clubs around in her bag until he came upon her pitching wedge. He slowly removed it from her bag and hurled it about 20 yards into some nearby bushes.

He then, again without saying a word, sauntered back to his chair, sat down under the umbrella, put that very large hand around his gin buck on the table under the umbrella and said to Sarah;

"Now, you don't have to worry about that anymore. What club in your bag do you like, Sarah?"

More than a little surprised Sarah stammered:

"I like my 6 iron Mr Armour."

And, then, very gracefully, the great Tommy Armour said;

"Well, then let me see you hit your 6 iron, Sarah."

Get the picture, Mike C?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

Great story!  Point well-taken, but then what excuse will I have for my poor scoring?  

[TEPaul]

".... but then what excuse will I have for my poor scoring?"

Preeeeeeeeeeecisely!!!

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

The interesting thing is, that made such an impression on Sarah (who actually hit her 6 iron very well in front of Armour and ended up idolizing the guy even more than she did before she met him and even though that was the only lesson he ever gave her), she never even remotely thought about retrieving that devilish pitching wedge of hers that was in those bushes about twnenty yards for Armour's teaching tee.

I always figured Dad and Armour probably went over there and retrieved it later and sold it and went out that night and had a few more gin bucks and stuff.

[TEPaul]

RJ Daley said:

"Sorry if this sounds like Ted Kazinsky, but it just sort of struck me that way rereading the essay and Thomas's quote."

RJ:

Isn't that the Ted Kazinsky who appears to have been strongly influenced by the "Arts and Crafts" Movement for concentrating on homemade crafts? What was it he was so well known for? Was it home-made bombs? Oh, sorry, sorry, about that---belay that thought.

[T_MacWood]

"For example, one of the reasons Colt, Morrison, Park etc. wanted to move away from the man-made Victorian era look was not only to get back to more natural designs, but to reintroduce the unpredictability of links-like courses. They sought to make the game more interesting by introducing more chance. (Or to use Behr-speak, they wanted golf to be more like a sport and less like a game.)"

Bob
I agree with that…one of the best to articulate this idea was Tom Simpson.

“I think the likes of Park and Colt, Morrison, Abercromby, Fowler, Mackenzie, Taylor and then certainly juggernaut architects like Ross or even Findlay or Bendelow could see that blatantly man-made looking architecture just wasn't accomplishing the same over-all effect on golfers that the linksland was always able to do for so many centuries simply because the Scottish linksmen were so fortunate to have that particular make-up of randomly natural land, topography and soil structure and acidity right under their feet as Nature gave it to them eons before.”

TE
I agree with that as well, your comments are consistent with Bob's, but a few of your other historic interpretations need further clarification.

Why you keep bringing up the A&C movement, especially when it isn’t necessary to the discussion, is a little perplexing, but…

You have a partial understanding of the A&C Movement, but you appear to miss the complete picture.

True the A&C Movement was a REACTION against the cheap goods of the Industrial Revolution…, but equally important was its PROMOTION of individual craftsmanship.

As well it is true the A&C Movement was a reaction against the formality of Victorian tastes and Classical architecture, but it was more complicated than just symmetry. Classical architecture in their view was a nondescript, formulaic and symmetrical style produced by slaves…. requiring no craftsmanship. Classical’s aim was perfect execution according to a series of clearly defined rules….as Ruskin said 'in the end any workman could produce it if he were beaten hard enough.'  

In addition it was a foreign Greek style…not native to their local. They had an appreciation for native architecture (and native arts and crafts) that evolved naturally based upon climate, natural resources, function and local aesthetics….not something based upon a rigid formula.

The A&C Movement was as much a positive movement as it was reactionary movement…I don’t think you quite grasp what it promoted, things like individual craftsmanship, fidelity of place, working with the natural materials, vernacular design, etc.

You said that the heathland first became available for golf courses in 1900, that is not accurate. There were courses built on the heathland or heaths prior to 1900, but those courses followed the same static formula despite the more interesting land.

You also said the early English rudimentary (Victorian) designs had to be made because most of the land was uninteresting. It was often true that many of these courses were built on non-descript sites, but not always. Your theory doesn’t address why these ‘architects’ chose to follow this strict formula when they had decent inland sites or why these same ‘architects’ chose to use geometric shapes and features on natural linksland.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Moving from the sand based soils of the links to the unfavorable soils found inland mandated formalized methods of providing for drainage and agronomic needs.

Inland sites can't be looked at in a purely topographical context.  Drainage and other factors come into play that weren't of a significant concern for the links courses.

Golf courses are living organisms not inanimate structures and as such I don't buy into your premise that they were greatly influenced by any A&C movement.

I don't think golf courses became unnatural or industrialized.
I think they had new and unusual obstacles to overcome by moving inland, and part of those problems necessitated construction, just like the sleepers at the Cardinal bunker, this construction served a useful purporse, and not a validation of the Victorian or any other era.

[T_MacWood]

"Moving from the sand based soils of the links to the unfavorable soils found inland mandated formalized methods of providing for drainage and agronomic needs.

Inland sites can't be looked at in a purely topographical context.  Drainage and other factors come into play that weren't of a significant concern for the links courses."

Pat
Was the formulaic cop bunker scheme a response to drainage issues? How did it address drainage issues?



Here is a Victorian feature--flat rectangular green surrounded by straightline cops--on what appears to be a well drained seaside site. What happened here?

[TEPaul]

"TE
I agree with that as well, your comments are consistent with Bob's, but a few of your other historic interpretations need further clarification.
Why you keep bringing up the A&C movement, especially when it isn’t necessary to the discussion, is a little perplexing, but…
You have a partial understanding of the A&C Movement, but you appear to miss the complete picture."

Tom:

Why do I keep bringing up the A/C Movement? For precisely the reason you seem to have given which seems to be quite a departure from some of the things you've previously said about it. It really isn't particularly necessary to this discussion of this subject----and that has always been my point with you on this subject of the golf architecture of this age and the primary influences on it.

Thank you though, for your description of what the A/C Movement really was in the second half of post #30. That does appear to be a pretty good thumbnail sketch of what the A/C Movement really was about. It's just about identical to what I have maintained in all these threads.

I don't think I have a partial understanding of what the A/C Movement was either---I think I have a pretty complete understanding of what it was and the irony of these discussions with you is I've had a pretty complete understanding of what it was probably well before Tom MacWood was born.

But you have in your essay given all of us a far more detailed explanation of the history of the "arts and crafts" movement and particularly a more detailed explanation of the lives of its primary participants and promoters.

What you have never done, in my opinion, is produce a cogent connection to the arts and crafts movement and the evolution of golf course architecture of this era and certainly into the meat of the Golden Age. You've obviously tried to do that but you just haven't.

The reasons things evolved as they did was for the reasons quite well supplied in the entire literature of golf architecture. Behr's remark that early golf architecture was simply an attempt at what he called the "game mind of man" to define things. As golf left the linksland that was frankly all it was about. When around 1900 the first really comprehensive man-made architecture began to get built was simply that time at which the raw naturalism of the linksland began to be imitated on a grander man-made scale.

You try to inform us that this was the result of the influence of the "Arts and Crafts" Movement that was taking place in other art forms. I guess that must be what you mean when you tell me I don't have a complete understanding of what the A/C Movement was! I most certainly do, I just don't agree at all with the importance of it on the evolution of golf architecture of this time--a strong connection that clearly you are trying to make. What influenced the architecture of this time and why is no mystery--never has been---and it doesn't support your conclusion no matter how general you try to make it.

Just like the rest of the literature on the evolution of golf architecture and the influences on it says there was no major A/C motivation on GCA and its pretty obvious if one reads that literature of those who were the participants of those times and later and what influenced them to evolve the art form of golf architecture the way they did and the way it did evolve.

You're clearly suggesting that the motivations on those who were responsible for what happened back then when they more closely looked at the essence of the linksland was from the A/C movement and I feel that's unsupportable as apparently those who participated in those times did as well.

At this point, it seems all you can hang your major A/C movement influence on GCA argument on is the existence of the "cop" bunker during that time. I believe a golf architecture writer and philosopher such as Behr dealt with a point like that well--in describing the reasons for a man-made architectural feature such as that.

Behr wrote constantly and voluminously on both the general sweep as well as the details of this era and it's influences and he never remotely mentioned the A/C Movement. He did mention, as most all of his contemporaries did, the influence of the naturalism of the raw linksland as the motivation on more natural golf architecture elsewhere. Of course, again, you suggest those early architects would never have even looked back at the raw naturalism of the linksland had it not been for the A/C Movement's influence. Again, I don't agree with that and either does the literature of golf architecture.

You even resort to pointing out that Behr lived in an A/C style house in New Jersey. He was a pretty savy guy--I wonder if even he realized that. For some reason none of that was ever mentioned anywhere. I wonder why.

Finally, you resorted to doing what you called giving Wayne and I some of our own medicine by trying to draw some analogy between the "Philadelphia School" of architecture and the A/C Movement---apparently claiming that they never actually called it that during their own lives and times.

The reasons they didn't are pretty obvious---all the Philly School was were 5-6 friends who collectively at PVGC and later out on their own were doing their own thing in architecture. Coincidentally the model they followed was the natural linksland and heathland naturally appearing man-made model. I don't think anyone ever called them the "Philly School" until about the last ten years.

But the point is---did they have some massive influence on GCA as you're trying to suggest the A/C Movement did? Of course not. Like some of the other "schools" of that time they were simply inspired by the linksland and heathlands and they said so rather constantly. They certainly never said a thing about the A/C Movement.

But perhaps you think at this point that they too never had a "complete understanding' of what they were doing and what was going on around them and the reasons for it.

I very much doubt that. I doubt they were as unaware as you seem to suggest everyone was both then and now. Everyone but yourself----that is.  

No, I simply feel the history and evolution of golf architecture has been pretty well written by some pretty informed people over the years and particularly back then. I don't believe any major influences on it have been overlooked or missed by them. It's been quite clear for years and not really all that complicated.

[TEPaul]

But it's true, so as not to get sidetracked by this A/C stuff which really didn't matter that much anyhow, the title question of GeoffShac's essay is "What Happened to the Revolution?"

I'd say it got sort of side-tracked for about 65 years but it seems to finally be happened now.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Would you point out the cop bunker and define a cop bunker as their seems to be some doubt or conflict as to what constitutes a cop bunker, which differs from a trench or coffin bunker ?

Cop bunkers, by their nature were above ground, and may have been the perceived solution to importing bunkers inland while at the same time solving the drainage problem.

From that picture how can you tell that the soil drains well ?

What's its hourly perc rate ?

The contouring within the green is anything but formulaic.

Seems like a neat, well protected punchbowl green.

Note the surrounding elevations.

How can you be sure that those features aren't also intended to divert surface water away from the green ?

[TEPaul]

Actually fellows the really old fashioned so-called "punchbowl" greens (which really were like bowls or basins) were that way to retain water or moisture to sustain the turf. Why not---they sure as hell didn't have that much in the way of manual irrigation on some of those courses back in that early day.

And as far as Tom MacWood and his definition of a "cop" bunker, he may have some exact definition of how that term was used back then but it seems to me the definitions of that term back then were sort of all over the place. For instance, there's no question in my mind that whatever definition Tom MacWood thinks Willie Park Jr may've been using in his book in 1896 is not really the same definition Tom MacWood is using on here now. Tom MacWood might point to one little area of what Park Jr said but to understand him better as to what he meant to indicate as to bunkers it seems one has to include everything he said about bunkers in that section on architecture in his book in 1896, not just one little part that seems to fit some definition.

[T_MacWood]

TE
I still don’t know why you felt compelled to bring up my name and the A&C Movement when responding to Bob. His observation was one shared by many of us; in fact you rephrased a very similar sentiment in your own response to him. Perhaps you were trying to agitate me.

But since you did bring it up, I thought I would add to your over-simplistic description of the A&C Movement. Other than that, I agreed with 90% of what you wrote in your several page synopsis of the history of golf architecture. The only other area I thought needed correction were your statements about the early golf architects not venturing into the heath locations prior to 1900 and the fact that your theory did not account for geometric work on the better inland and seaside sites prior to 1900. In most cased our disagreements can be traced back to having a different base of information.

Regarding the A&C essay, it hasn’t changed. The fact is you misread large portions of it. It always said that Horace Hutchinson was the primary influence; recommending the links model inland. It always said that many of the golf architects of that period had philosophies that were in harmony with A&C thought. And it always said that period of golf architecture should be considered one of the many artistic forms of the A&C Movement. (It is also clear that Hutchinson was influenced by the thoughts of Ruskin and Morris).

“I don't think I have a partial understanding of what the A/C Movement was either---I think I have a pretty complete understanding of what it was and the irony of these discussions with you is I've had a pretty complete understanding of what it was probably well before Tom MacWood was born.”

Uh? Whatever you say. Your continual insistence that the golf architects of that period never once mentioned the A&C Movement is an illustration of your understanding. No one mentioned it, you are correct…including William Morris himself. It is a modern tag, borrowed from the A&C Exhibition Society, and agreed upon by historians.

“Just like the rest of the literature on the evolution of golf architecture…”

What literature are you referring to? You’ve mentioned Behr, but with all due respect to Behr, he hardly devoted much space, or detail, to the subject of the early British architecture. What other books detail those early years?

Regarding Behr, I’m not sure there was a golf architect who was more in tune with the philosophies of the A&C. Looking at golf architecture from an artistic point of view, promoting naturalism, warning against standardization, and appreciating the importance of craftsmanship.

“Craftsmanship has merit, but it becomes worthwhile only when it is creative, and this it can be only when it is imbued with an idea that has some high purpose in mind.”

That sounds like it was written by Ruskin or Morris.

“Machinery may, on the whole, have benefited mankind but, in some respects, it has done irreparable harm.”

It really is a shame this very good thread was thrown off course. Sorry.

Pat
A cop is a grass bank. A cop bunker is a trench (normally a sandy trench) with grass bank behind it.

How did the formulaic cop bunker address the drainage issues?

That picture is the seaside links of Littlestone. I don’t know if it is well drained or not…that is why I wrote ‘apparently.’ Most links are well drained…but not all of them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Where did you obtain your definition of a cop bunker ?

Do you have pictures of all of the other greens ?
The rest of the golf course ?

Do you have pictures from a variety of angles ?

Judging the architecture of a golf course from a single picture of one feature, from one angle is like the three blind men examining the elephant.

Would a picture of a rectangular green at Chicago Golf Club qualify the golf course as formulaic and victorian age golf course architecture ?

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Where are we taking this discussion...other than further further from its original topic in attempt to avoid answering a simple question. How did the formulaic cop bunker address the drainage issues? Perhaps the third time will be the charm, although I'm not holding my breath. I think you made it up.

"Where did you obtain your definition of a cop bunker ?" The definition comes from 'The Historical Dictionary of Golfing Terms' by Peter Davies. Also see the first chapter of my Arts and Crafts essay, there are quotes from about half dozen architects/writers regarding cop bunkers and Victorian architecture (seaside as well). I've yet to read how they helped drainage, but you may have uncovered something from another source.

"Do you have pictures of all of the other greens ?
The rest of the golf course ?" No, not all the greens. Why?

"Do you have pictures from a variety of angles ?" Why?

"Judging the architecture of a golf course from a single picture of one feature, from one angle is like the three blind men examining the elephant." Yes, very good point. Who made a judgement about the entire course?

"Would a picture of a rectangular green at Chicago Golf Club qualify the golf course as formulaic and victorian age golf course architecture ?" Yes and No. The green would be an example of Victorian Age golf architecture. If there were seventeen other greens with cop bunkers to go with it...the golf course as well. What happened to the Revolution?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Regarding your post #37---it's of no use at all to go over once again any of the points you make in it. They're just the same old things. You just didn't make the historical connection you'd obviously like to have made and hoped you could have made in that essay.

What literature of golf course architecture am I speaking of? Can't you figure out that for yourself? Some of the best books written on the subject of the Golden Age of Golf Architecture--particulary books written by Hunter, Thomas Macdonald and MacKenzie et al.

It's too bad you take everything said about what you write so personally. I'm not trying to agitate you at all. If you write something like you did and draw the conclusions you did such as the influence of the A/C Movement being the primary influence on the Golden Age and Hutchinson being the father or guide of golf course architecture you should understand it will need to stand up to scrutiny and in my opinion, it doesn't even come close to doing that.

The linksland model was the primary influence on the Golden Age of Golf Architecture---all those involved in it said as much and there's no good reason, at this point, to revise or alter that. It's not that the A/C Movement wasn't some influence--many other things were as well but the primary one was the linksland as has been told often and well for perhaps 100 years. And your own inclusion of this A/C influence as the primary influence should never be taken seriously. At least I hope it never is. It's not supportable, period. It was a pretty good try on your part but it just doesn't connect.

I realize you'd probably like to discover something or reveal something in the evolution of golf course architecture but this wasn't it, in my book. But you do a lot of research so you should probably just keep on searching and who knows maybe something will turn up to show that all those involved in golf architecture through the years who chronicled it missed something significant. I won't be holding my breath, though.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Where are we taking this discussion...other than further further from its original topic in attempt to avoid answering a simple question. How did the formulaic cop bunker address the drainage issues? Perhaps the third time will be the charm, although I'm not holding my breath. I think you made it up.

Take a close look at the picture you posted and see if you can't figure out for yourself, without a lot of research how those bunkers assist with drainage in and around that green.[/color]

"Where did you obtain your definition of a cop bunker ?" The definition comes from 'The Historical Dictionary of Golfing Terms' by Peter Davies. Also see the first chapter of my Arts and Crafts essay, there are quotes from about half dozen architects/writers regarding cop bunkers and Victorian architecture (seaside as well). I've yet to read how they helped drainage, but you may have uncovered something from another source.

Isn't a cop a cylindrical or conical shaped form ?
Picture that form with a bunker cut into it, above ground.[/color]

"Do you have pictures of all of the other greens ?
The rest of the golf course ?" No, not all the greens. Why?
Because a single photo, from a sole angle, of a particular feature doesn't establish the nature of style of the entire golf course.  And, if more information could be obtained, it would be helpful.[/color]

"Do you have pictures from a variety of angles ?" Why?
Same reason.[/color]

"Judging the architecture of a golf course from a single picture of one feature, from one angle is like the three blind men examining the elephant." Yes, very good point.
Who made a judgement about the entire course?
I thought that's what your were implying.[/color]

"Would a picture of a rectangular green at Chicago Golf Club qualify the golf course as formulaic and victorian age golf course architecture ?" Yes and No. The green would be an example of Victorian Age golf architecture.

That's a conclusion I don't agree with.
You're dictatorial conclusion that the green automatically becomes an example of Victorian Age Golf Course architecture, when in fact its genesis may lie elsewhere.

You tend to conclude, to the exclusion of all other possibilities, in an attempt to buttress your premise.[/color]

If there were seventeen other greens with cop bunkers to go with it...the golf course as well.  

That would be different, that would evidence a systemic design, a global style for that golf course.  But, you can't take one feature and magnify it to form a universal conclusion to the exclusion of all other possibilities.[/color]

What happened to the Revolution?

The Navy brought it to an abrupt end on the South Shore of Long Island.[/color]
 

[T_MacWood]

TE
"What literature of golf course architecture am I speaking of? Can't you figure out that for yourself? Some of the best books written on the subject of the Golden Age of Golf Architecture--particulary books written by Hunter, Thomas Macdonald and MacKenzie et al."

This might explain our disconnect...two don't even mention British inland courses, Hunter barely mentions it and MacKenzie lists some early courses and circumstances, but doesn't even mention Willie Park-Jr., much less go into detail of what happened.

If you are really interested in a more indepth look at those early British heathland years, let me recommend books written by HG. Hutchinson (Fifty Years in Golf and Golf Greens and Greenkeeping), Guy Campbell (A History of Golf in Britain), Tom Simpson (The Game of Golf) and Bernard Darwin (numerous). The early British magazines are an excellent source as well....maybe the best source. Fred Hawtree's books are also a good source (especially his last book).

As far as my essay not successfully making the case...I guess you are the final word. A damn shame...as you say it was a good try.

I suspect our exchanges of late on this subject have changed very few minds. Those who thought the essay's conclusions had merit, probably still feel that way. And those who thought it was a bunch of mumbo jumbo, most likely still think it is a bunch of mumbo jumbo. You can't please everyone, but hopefully most will agree it is was thought provoking and well researched.

"The linksland model was the primary influence on the Golden Age of Golf Architecture."

We agree! Let's leave it at that.

Pat
I'll take your refusal to answer as a 'yes, I did make it up.'
 

[TEPaul]

"This might explain our disconnect...two don't even mention British inland courses, Hunter barely mentions it and MacKenzie lists some early courses and circumstances, but doesn't even mention Willie Park-Jr., much less go into detail of what happened."

Well exactly, Tom! You just made my point better than I did! It probably never occured to you since you seem so fixated on the A/C Movement (and the Dark Ages) but there's obviously an excellent reason for that!

Since you're so good at constantly explainng to us how little everyone knows about this and its massive influence, I guess in your opinion, Macdonald, Hunter, Thomas, Mackenzie (in what they wrote) didn't know much about the Golden Age and what influenced it, huh?

[T_MacWood]

TE
What is the Golden Age? I don't recall any of those four mentioning it.

[TEPaul]

"TE
What is the Golden Age? I don't recall any of those four mentioning it."

Jeeeesus, the frightening thing is you might actually be serious!

Uh, well, Gee-whiz, I guess I really don't know what the "Golden Age" was then. I do know they sure were writing about something they were doing for about 25 years and I do know what they wrote were the primary influences on them but who knows maybe the whole thing was a great big fantasy that never existed. I'll just sleep on it tonight and maybe by tomorrow I can come up with a logical reason for how all those neat "Golden Age" courses got there.

Or, maybe, they just aren't there!  

[T_MacWood]

TE
I've always suspected you get most of your information from dreams.

[RJ_Daley]

If I've read this whole discussion, can I get grad credits towards a Master of Fine Arts degree?

[TEPaul]

"TE
I've always suspected you get most of your information from dreams."

Tom;

I'm sure you do suspect that but I'm just about certain your assumptions, conclusions and suggestions on this A/C thing were arrived at by trying to fit a square peg into round hole.

[TEPaul]

RJ, you've got to admit some of this is pretty funny stuff.