Do highly contoured greens favor bad putters?

[THuckaby2]

Hmmm, you might be on to something...

 

Just took 200 posts.  AGC, PLEASE tell me you are coming to Cuscowilla.  The first 6 beers or whatever you might want are on me.

TH

[A.G._Crockett]

It kills me not to be a Cuscowilla (which I have played and adore) but I won't be.  We're concluding our church stewardship campaign (on which I work) that Sunday, my son has a really, really important baseball tryout for a spring team that weekend, and on top of that I just simply can't afford it.

But man, are you gonna love that golf course!

[THuckaby2]

It kills me not to be a Cuscowilla (which I have played and adore) but I won't be.  We're concluding our church stewardship campaign (on which I work) that Sunday, my son has a really, really important baseball tryout for a spring team that weekend, and on top of that I just simply can't afford it.

But man, are you gonna love that golf course!

AGC:  I of all people absolutely understand life realities and it remains a minor miracle that I am able to pull off this trip.  So no hassles, I just do believe you've been such a good egg about all this that if and when we do meet - and it's now a quest for me to make that happen somehow, someway - well, the drinks are on me.

Then of course we're gonna have to try a few of the wildest putts we can find.  I'm just counting on YOU to play the role of Faxon as I can definitely handle Joe Hack.
 

TH

[A.G._Crockett]

If I'm gonna be Faxon, I'll have to have a LOT of drinks first.  Putting sober, I AM Joe Hack!

[TEPaul]

The truth is flat and boring greens favor the bad putter. How do I know that? Simply because I assume it. And how do I know my assumption is correct and provable? Because I know I'm right---that's why!  

What probably favors a bad putter vs a really good one on something like highly contoured greens relative to something else is his confidence or lack thereof.

Have any of you stood over a complicated contoured and sloped putt and that mysterious feeling suddenly comes over you that you're going to make it and you do? That's not happened to me that often but it seems when it does I really have made more than seem probable or even possible. Have you ever stood over a flat 2 foot putt and suddenly the thought crosses your mind that you're going to miss it and so many times you do? That's also happened to me so much more than I'd ever assume it ever would.

This probably isn't about stats at all---it's probably just about that mysterious factor so prevelant in golf called confidence or lack thereof. Is a good play good because he's confident or is he confident because he's good?

Somehow I feel some of you wonkers just may attempt to STASTICALLY prove that one way or the other!  

[THuckaby2]

TEP:

Once again this is pretty funny.  Oh hell yes I am all about the mystical in golf - some guys call me "spooky" for how I refuse science and play by feel and just rely on what the golf gods allow - but my spookiness goes exactly opposite from yours in putting!

That is, I have had plenty of flat, or relatively flat, putts that I have stood over and just had the feeling wash over me that it was as good as in.  Sure enough, in it goes.  I can't ever remember that happening on a wildly contoured putt.

Which might explain why you and I look at this issue differently, huh?

 

[THuckaby2]

Dave:

I am indeed arguing exceptions to a rule.  Or do you find "highly contoured greens" to be a regular occurrence?  The more this goes on the more I think our differences are just in definition.  Again, by "highly contoured greens" I mean real monsters, where talent is indeed mitigated.

I thought that was a given.

And thus I am dry as a bone.  And AG is right, but so am I.

 

[TEPaul]

"Which might explain why you and I look at this issue differently, huh?"

Tom;

When are you going to come to understand this has nothing to do with just that you and I look at this differently? It has everything to do with the fact that I'm just right and you're just wrong! Please try to come to understand this fact at some point in the not too distance future and then I guarantee you that both life and golf will become far more logical to you---and you should be at peace with it all---as I am!

[THuckaby2]

Dave:

High winds are a totally different thing, because it can make the hack take WAY more shots than even the worst green.

Again, my contention is that severe greens aren't gonna make the hack take that many more putts than Faxon, and since Faxon's gonna threeputt, it tends to equalize rather than differentiate.  Go back and read my Meadow Club #3 example.

Which of course you disagree with.

So I believe we can just leave it at that.  I don't think the hack will do as poorly as you do on severe greens, and what I witnessed last week at Meadow Club again plays powerfully on my contentions here.

Of course I could be wrong, but you are.

 

[THuckaby2]

"Which might explain why you and I look at this issue differently, huh?"

Tom;

When are you going to come to understand this has nothing to do with just that you and I look at this differently? It has everything to do with the fact that I'm just right and you're just wrong! Please try to come to understand this fact at some point in the not too distance future and then I guarantee you that both life and golf will become far more logical to you---and you should be at peace with it all---as I am!

TEP:  believe me, on damn near all issues that's EXACTLY how I treat things.  That's why my posts tend to be bunched on relatively few topics.  On the ones where that occurs - which is the vast majority - all you get is silence from me.  And the group is is happy, and I am happy, and the golf world keeps spinning.

 

[johnk]

You know it's impressive to get this baby cranked up again.

I think Tom's attitude is kinda like Nicklaus on this one - he's never 3-putted the 18th green of any course ( IN HIS MIND ).   I also think that the Huckster is vastly underestimating the ability of JH to 4-putt and beyond on courses where Faxon might  sniff a 3-putt.

I played Spyglass on Tues (in 90deg heat, btw), and one of the guys we got paired with was a solid 15 hcp.  Spyglass is not contoured like ANGC, Pasatiempo, but there are a few dangerous greens, like #6, #8, #9, #16, #18.   #10 is no freebie, either...

Anyhoo, our 15hcp friend managed to 4-putt twice.  Another 7 hcp in the group 4-putted #5.  Nothing outrageous, but there it is.  Faxon would not have 3-putted any of the putts that anyone in the foursome had all day...

What does this all mean?  I don't know, except that Sr. Huckaby either doesn't play with bad putters, or doesn't watch them, or they pick up before the 4 and 5-putts would happen, because they don't want to embarass themselves in front of the highly skilled Welshman...

[George Pazin]

I tried to make the same point as Shivas maybe 5 pages ago. His example is even clearer, though. By your (ridiculous) thesis, wind should indeed affect Tiger more than me, because the effects of wind are certainly more random than the influence of a highly contoured green.

Dye's greens at Mystic Rock are not even remotely close to being flat greens. They are the only Dye greens I've had the pleasure of playing (saw The Ocean Course in person, but it was closed because they didn't want me tearing it up before the World Cup last year ), but my gut feeling is that his greens are more severe than most.

Look at that list again - Faxon didn't three putt at some flatter greens (relatively speaking) and he didn't 3 putt at Mystic Rock (which in my book have very good contour). I guarantee you that I will 3 putt on flat fast greens, but I will 3 putt more often on contoured greens with any kind of speed whatsoever.

The only way your thesis holds is if the flat greens are so dead flat that they are a joke, and the contoured greens are contoured so much that they blow away anything in existence currently in the world, so much that putting becomes a flat out (no pun intended) random occurence.

I have seen - heck, I see, every time I play, lousy golfers 4 putt easy greens. You are kidding yourself if you think that they aren't going to putt that much worse on highly contoured greens. There is a lower bound to how low you can go, but there is no upper bound for how high. That is a big part of what you are missing, with your highly fallacious assumption that a lousy putter isn't going to do much worse on highly contoured greens.

I will state my generalized thesis again - anything that makes golf more difficult for the top player will make the game incrementally harder for the lousy player. If you think Fax is going to 3 putt more often on highly contoured greens, then a lousy putter will 3 putt way more often. And no made up numbers by you or Rich can convince me otherwise. If we had a real life putt off and the numbers supported you, I'd be the first to say I was wrong, but I'm sure not accepting hypothetical numbers as some sort of proof.

One thing I disagree with Shivas on - you are in fact all wet on this one!

 

[Brent Hutto]

There is a lower bound to how low you can go, but there is no upper bound for how high.

Exactly.

[THuckaby2]

JK:

Oh good lord is that post the farthest from the truth in the history of this board.  It's not your fault, you haven't been forced to hear my tails of woe enough.  But my god, I get to play with single-digit handicappers about once every 25 rounds - usually it's the rounds with GCA-related folks.  I play with SO many bad players, of all degrees of horrid ability, that if any thing I think I have a uniquely qualified perspective on this.

And yes, they do 4putt.  But truly not that often.  When they four-putt, and worse, it's typically a situation like #11 Pasa with the pin in the back - you know, infinite putting?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen - it does.  Just not enough to overcome the other factors.

TH

[THuckaby2]

George:

We've circled too many times on this.  I'm gonna take the tack AGC tried earlier and just give up, with you anyway.  There's only so many ways I can explain this - I have nothing left.  I just plain disagree.  I just think on the vast majority of these highly contoured greens, they're both going to 3putt, just in different ways - as I witnessed at Meadow Club.  You and many others disagree, and that is certainly fine.

And of course none of this makes the golf world stop spinning.

Just be careful using words like "highly fallacious" lest ye get them back at you when I'm in a less charitable mood.

 

TH

[George Pazin]

I tried to bow out many pages ago, but you accused me of placing too much value on my time, so I decided to show you just how little my time is worth.

[Dan Kelly]

Is there a Mr. Pelz in the house?

[A.G._Crockett]

Is there a Mr. Pelz in the house?

His head exploded about 6 pages ago.

[Mark Brown]

Fast flat greens test nerves rather than overall skill and imagination

Boldly contoured greens at a good speed best test the overall skill of the putter, and they're a lot more fun.

[Tripp_Davis]

I'll try to bring this thread back to life or put an end to it one.

Gentlemen, far and wide, flat greens do not make putting easier for the better player.  It does not necessarily make it easier to get approach shots closer to the hole.  I find it easier to get approach shots closer to pins on greens with more contour because I can use slopes to get the ball closer to the hole.  Most everything that has been mentioned here assumes that the average player is getting the ball as close to the hole with approach shots.  Even if you were to put the the good player and the average player the same distance from the hole, lets say 30 feet on contoured greens, the better player is going to beat up the average player over 18 holes because the good player would proabably not 3 putt any and would make some.  The average player is going to three putt more often than on flat greens and will not likely make any putts on contoured greens.  The average player has much more of a chance to make putts on flatter greens and will not three putt as often, whereas the better player cannot use the advantage of feel on flat greens and I propose they will not make any more on flat greens and will still not three putt.  

This said, the average player will have a much greater chance of hitting approach shots close to flat greens, and the contours of a countoured green will more often reject a ball from a pin when played without the precision a better player can, further accentuating the advantage a better player will have on contoured greens.  The length of the course also will have an impact, as will factors of wind.  

When would I be most afraid of an average player and when would I give less shots?  On a longish course with flat greens.  I am not going to make as many birdies and the average player will both be able to get approach shots closer and they will have a greater chance of getting the ball up and down when they miss a green.  When I look at courses to qualify for USGA events on, I do much better on greens with contour.  Flatter greens bring the average/good player back into the game.  

Keep in mind a complete game of golf is not putt putt, it also requires that you hit shots into these greens that are being dicussed.

[TEPaul]

I don't know, there's something about this Tripp Davis and his fairly undeniable logic on many of these threads that definitely strips through a lot of the hypothetical bullshit that prevails on this site from time to time. I, for one, am very glad he joined GOLFCLUBATLAS.com recently. I think the guy is one of the best reality checks on here in a long, long time!

[JakaB]

Sure...except that he is wrong.   I still believe that he would beat me worse at Torrey Pines than at Pasa because of the greens...

[DMoriarty]

I cant believe you guys are still talking about this.  

Bad putters make more mistakes.  Plus their mistakes are more severe than good putters' mistakes.  Contours exaggerate these mistakes, leaving a bad putter a much more difficult second (or third) putt.  

[George Pazin]

bumping for MWP - have a good laugh.

[Lou_Duran]

George,

Thanks for bringing this back up.  I hadn't seen it.

Heaven forbid, but possibly for the first time, I am in full agreement with David Moriarty.

There are probably a few mediocre putters who've won the Masters, but most were damned good in their glory years.

On the relatively flat, large greens of Champions- Cypress, a very poor putter for a professional, Orville Moody, won the US Open.  As a very good striker of the ball, he negotiated the large greens well on his approaches and made enough straight putts to win.

From my own experience as a poor putter, when I get to rolly-polly greens like at Black Mesa or the Rawls course, I am toast.  Pasatiempo as well.  Put me on a typical RTJ or Ress Jones course and I'm not half bad.

An acquaintance who played sporadically on the Senior Tour for a couple of years told me that tee to green ANGC was not difficult at all.  The greens were totally a different matter.  This guy had a wonderful, rythmic swing until he got on the greens.  He typically putted like a 10 handicap.  In his few rounds at ANGC, he had multiple three-putts and didn't break 80 once.