David:
For someone to use the word "condescending" is really laughable -- talk about the kettle calling the pot black. ::)That's a stock in trade tactic you have perfected.
I am a golf media person and as a result I do travel a good bit and see / play a slew of courses you will likely not encounter. My analysis is based on a much deeper pool of courses to compare and contrast than many. Likely -- including yourself.
David -- just because you and others cannot and do not play a vast array of courses is not my problem or issue. That's yours. People make choices and that's clearly their prerogtaive. Just because you limit yourself doesn't mean I have to or even want to. Also, you don't know the context of my life because it includes a vast array of different activities beyond golf and involves an array of family and civic involvements. Nonetheless, my passion for the game is second to none and I do make a point in playing a wide array of courses in order for me to develop a wider sense of what arhitecture can and should be about.
David -- you take umbrage when any comments doesn't jive with your narrow (my word) sense what golf course architecture can be about. I mentioned the comments from others on the subject of Black Rock. They are all conveniently dismissed by you as either woefully ignorant or subject to conflicts of interests that prevent objectivity. That's major league BS because none of those comment "toe the Moriarty line."
I know plenty of panelists from the different magazines -- including the people I spoke with while there -- and generally they found Black Rock to be a solid design effort by Jim Engh -- they also have played other designs he has created. Many of these same people also told me they believe Friar's Head should have been voted #1 by Digest for "Best New Private" a year ago. I can't say for sure because I have not played FH thus far. I have played Dallas National and I see the Texas layout being just ahead of what's there at Black Rock.
Let me elaborate on a few of the holes that you asimply butchered with your own analysis.
The beauty of the course is there throughout the time one plays at Black Rock. Laboring with you on this point is truly silly. Frankly, we disagree here big time.
Thank you for your snide "whatever you say" comment regarding the slope. I have played courses that are less than 150 but are clearly tougher and more intense for all the hurdles they provide (Bethpage Black comes to mind immediately and it's not at 150) than what one encounters at Black Rock. The demands at Black Rock deal in many ways with the greens -- the tee-to-green aspect is less so and ditto the penal and demands of the rough off the tee.
I also enjoy your small grouping of fellow mid-handicap types who all to a man said Black Rock was a slog. A great sampling of opinion no doubt.
You bitch and moan about no hole being higher than the clubhouse and surrounding lots -- big f'en deal. What does that have to do with the quality of the existing holes? Hello -- anybody home?
Let's talk about the so-called "concavity" of the holes. Where is it so pronounced that poor play is somehow rewarded? If you hit tee shots at the corners the ball will run-off faster than a jackrabbit on a number of holes -- including the par-5 8th hole you pictured.
This idea that concavity is all encompassing and it in fact causes the course to be weaker architecturally is not true. It's great to say -- "Oh, look at the 'concavity' here" -- but tell me how it affects the golfer when playing the hole? I played the course and made it a point to play shots from varying angles -- your conclusion doesn't wash with what I experienced. David -- you're into the "how it looks" belief -- I look at something that means a bit more -- "how it plays."
The 18th is a fine closer -- it plays uphill and the 418 yard distance plays a bit longer than the card indicates. It has a demanding tee shot because those who opt to play closer to the right side will encounter a well-placed bunker on that side. If you slide the drive further left the angle for the approach becomes more demanding.
The green is also appropriately sloped and you need to gauge your speed with great care. The 18th is a possible birdie hole but it doesn't yield unless you play a first rate tee shot and fine approach.
Let's also talk about bailouts -- there are plenty provided on the course -- guess what David -- they call that options -- something the player can opt to do on number of holes at Black Rock. These options are also varied from both left and right sides depending upon the angle of attack you are left with and the position of the pin.
Engh doesn't generally provide holes with an "all or nothing" style. He does provide the player (high and low handicapper) with a range of options depending upon your comfort zone and execution level.
The downhill par-5 8th is rated as the #1 handicap hole at Black Rock and I did say (please re-read what I said) that I don't see the hole at the highest of levels. The hole does provide a range of options. David -- the 8th hole will not prevent wayward drives frm simply clinging to the fairway. That is hogwash. The played must shape a shot to catch the provided "turbo boost" and if done correctly you then may have the option in going for the green in two strokes.
Your analysis also failed to highlight the fact that the green is two-tiered and you and need to consider where you leave the ball at all times.
Of course -- you conveniently skipped any discussion on the superb par-5 16th. It's one of the best par-5's I have played among modern design and shows me the talent level of what Jim Engh is capable in producing.
Let's also talk about the 6th -- it's a good par-4 -- not a great one. The tee shot is best played as close to the water off the fairway to the right to give you the best angle and distance into the target. The green is well designed because it can place a great premium on your approach to get to the proper spot. With the pin cut low towards the right it takes a highly skilled shot to get close. Again -- the way the hole plays is what I consider first and foremost.
David -- take the time to read my previous posts on the issue I have with the par-3 13th hole. I never defended the hole and it's about time you understand what others have to say before lobbing forward some quick blurb on what I missed regarding it. I wasn't impressed with the waterfall there and fundamentally the 13th is simply a major weak link at the course. I did salute the following hole -- because the approach is much more intense and the green design well arranged with sufficient contour. Again you throw forward the obvious and simply ignore all the other top notch elements the course provides.
I'll say this again in case you missed it -- Black Rock is a fine course by Jim Engh and after playing his newest effort at Lakota Canyon I will say it's the second best I have personally played from his portfolio. Engh provides a wealth of choices when playing his courses and there are few people in architecture circles today who design better par-5's. I have also said that I would like to see greater hole differentiation --this generally happens when he sticks to using five par-5's and five par-3's on some of his designs. Black Rock does this configuration quite well and Lakota Canyon goes even further.
Jim Engh is a talented designer -- he may not be on the short list of certain GCA types who have their clear "favorites" but I always enjoy the work he does. Not all of it by any rate are all home runs but he does provide in many courses a well thought-out idea on what golfers need to do in order succeed at his layouts.