So Just How Good is Black Rock ?

[Matt_Ward]

I had the pleasure today in playing Black Rock -- the Jim Engh design layout in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho and I have to say it is a layout that provides the maximum in the fun element when playing.

I have had the pleasure in playing other Engh designs (Redland Mesa, Sanctuary, Hawktree, Fossil Trace, etc, etc) but Black Rock is a clear cut above the others.

For background purposes the skinny on the course ...

7,130 yards
Par-72
74.7 course rating
150 slope

Black Rock is built on rolling terrain -- although not as abrupt as what you find at Sanctuary in Sedalia, CO. I was curious to play the course and see how it compared with the other top private layouts that opened a year ago such as Dallas National -- although I have not played Friar's Head as of yet.

My experience with Engh designs indicates a desire to max out the fun element when playing. The opening sequence is indicative of that.

The 1st hole plays 375 yards and is without question an "easy" starter to get you out of the box. The hole tumbles down a hill and turns left with a very inviting fairway target. The green is nicely protected but nothing out of the ordinary.

The 2nd hole is a downhgill par-3 of 209 yards and here the meter of challenge rise a bit. The shot needs to land softy as the green tends to fall of on both sides.

The 3rd hole says very clearly, "Welcome to Idaho!" There is an elevated tee pad and you quickly descend with a vast arry of towering pines on both sides of the fairways and far off in the distance below. Simply an eyeful. The hole is a long par-5 of 611 yards but because it falls downhill it plays a bit shorter. The fairway stop at about the 340-350 yard-mark and here the golfer must decide to either layback or go for a green that is perched ever so deliciously over a canyon that simply begs to swallow your golf ball. Most players will have to lay-up and for those who go for it it takes a herculean blow to carry the junk and land near the green. I busted a tee shot to the 340-350 cut-off and hit two-iron from there to the right of the green but it simply ran too far and into some high grass which I was barely able to chip from and get on to the green for a two-putt and par. The 3rd is a clear reason why Engh succeeds -- he is able to design par-5's that provide a range of options and decisions. They don't simpy surrender after the tee shot.

The 4th is 407 yards and dog-legs left. Here you have to respect the lone fairway bunker protecting that side and the approach must be gauged correctly as there is plenty of contour to sweep your ball further away for those lacking control. Very underrated hole on the entire course.

The 5th at 556 yards is another winner of a par-5. You can bust your tee ball and if you should carry a slight rise int he fairway you can have a go for the target. Here Engh fashioned a long fairway bunker that comes up very close the green. The bunker is shaped long ways and any shot not sufficiently hit with enough club will be swallowed. The green is also angled nicely to provide plenty of unique pin placements. A possible birdie hole but can easily result in bogey for the foolish play.

The 6th is 428 yards and provides a wide fairway but one where a tee shot down the right side provides the better angle. The only issue -- there is a huge pond on that side. Here you have a superb green site in which it rolls in a number of waves. No matter how big you bust the tee shot it's the approach that is again crucial.

The 7th is 233 yards and plays slightly uphill to another winning green. There is a back finger area -- reminiscent of the par-3 14th at Hawktree. I hit a 3-iron and it was enough club but I was in the wrong position and a three-putt was the net result.

The 8th is 602 yards and a par-5 -- the 3rd on the side. For many architects the thought of having three par-5's on one side would normally result in one of them being just a mailed in design effort. Not here. The hole plays downhill allthe way and the tee shot provides a turbo boost provided you keep it straight. The green is big time defended by water and bunkers and the prudent play is to keep your second shot out to the right. Once again the green is well done with a rib that runs from back to front. Failure to be on the proper side of the rib will likely be a bogey. The hole is rated the #1 handicap hole but I personally believe the 3rd and 5th are better par-5's.

The 9th is 201 yards / par-3 and the 3rd short hole on the front. A quality approach must be made to a green that once again has plenty of contour. A quality closer to the front side.

The 10th is 398 yards / par-4 and tumbles slightly downhill and to the left. You can hit s 3-metal or long iron (I hit a 1-iron) and provided you don't go too far left you are left with a short iron to the smalles green on the course (no more than 3,000 square feet). The green is serpentine in its appearance and you need to gauge perfectly the distance. The player also has the option in using an alleyway that Engh provided for a ground play if desired. The host pro did that during my round there and excuted it flawlessly.

The 11th is 413 yards and also plays downhill. You don't need to hit driver as you want to maximize the correct angle into the green. The green side is simply one of the best I have ever played. The hole is literally beyond a rock cropping on both sides that stand no less rigorously than two fierce dogs protecting the entrance way to the junkyard. You need to lob your approach the appropriate height to land softy on a two-tiered target that is also well done. There is a waterfall feature on the hole and it was being worked on by crews at the facility. Let me say this -- the waterfall is nothing more than a bit player on the quality of this hole. The hole is well done for a mid-length par-4.

The 12th is 568 yards and a solid par-5. You hit driver downhill but you need to avoid a solitary bunker on the left side. Even after you bust a tee shot you are then confronted with an all uphill approach to a green that sits high in the distance. Engh smartly provides a somewhat blind approach for those lacking the firewpower to get home in two. It's just enough to throw off your comfort zone with a wedge 3rd shot.

The 13th starts the sequence of two par-3's in succession and is the only real weakness of the course in my eyes. The two holes are not that really different and although they are well done the question of does two holes of similar length -- 150 and 157 yards respectively -- and shot values -- really work and could something else have been included.

The 15th is the best par-4 on the course. It plays 453 yards and is up hill all the way. There are no fairway bunkers and it's just a matter-of-fact show-me-what-you-got par-4. Again, another fine green site by Engh.

The 16th at 568 yards is one of the best risk and reward par-5's I have played. I believe it's the best hole at Black Rock. The tee shot plays downhill but you must avoid wetlands to the right and garbage to the left. A long tee shot will get sufficient distance from the slope -- I reached the 185-yard mark but the hole was far from over. Here Engh has put the green behind a series of towering ponderosa pines and there is a devilish frontal bunker that guards the entire putting surface. The player can take a conservative approach and aim to the far right and thenplay a 3rd from that position.

If you do hit it big enough off the tee and are fortunate to avoid a downhill stance you are left with a demanding approach over the trees to a green that is not very wide or welcome to anything that is not hit 100% on the money. I hit a 7-iron a bit heavy and landed in the front bunker where I was most fortunate to catch a lie and make a four.

The 16th at Black Rock needs to be seen and played to be believed. It is thaaaaaaaaaaaaat good in my book.

Engh is not finished just yet with you. The par-4 17th at 368 yards belies the short distance. You play uphill all the way and the hole is really at minimum a 30-40 yards more than the card indicates. You need to hit the tee shot into the fairway to set-up an all uphill approach to a solid green site.

The concluding hole at Black Rock is also uphill -- 416 yards and is one of the best driving holes on the course. Unlike the 18th at Sanctuary which is severely uphill -- the 18th at Black Rock is well done and a better hole.

All in all, Black Rock is well done by Engh. I personally believe the par-4's should have included one or two longer varieties and the back-to-back par-3's at the course don't really work.

Time doesn't allow me to compare Black Rock versus Dallas National but I will when I get more time either later today or tomorrow. Among all Engh designs I have played Black Rock is without question the best of the lot.

[Craig Sweet]

Hmmm...how was it that you were able to get on?

I know the super and he claims even he can't get a friend a tee time.  

There are several very nice courses in that area. The Coeur D'Alene muni is very enjoyable, as is Circling Raven and Stone Ridge.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I concur with Matt's comments.  I loved the variety as the course moved from open area through some valley/mountian terrain out into the open on #5 and back again on the front nine.  

The back routing around the face of the mountian was spectacular and I think dictated by the terrain.

The only thought that I had was that I forgot how similar in actual distance the 13th and 14th holes were until you said so.  Because to me they played like two completely different holes.  The 13th being only 7 yard shorter on the card but playing almost as a drop shot to a green deep but not wide.  And the 14th as a level shot across the valley to a wide but not deep green.  I played 13 as 2 clubs less than 14 probably could have been 3 clubs different.

Here are some pics to help show some of Matts great descriptions.


Par 5, 5th hole.  A great hole with lots of width, but the angles of the fairway as well as the green provide some interesting shots.


The unique greensite of the Par 4 11th hole.  The story I heard from the pro was that when preparing this greensite they hit these rock outcroppings under the ground and they found they were quite large.  When they were about to blast them away Engh found out about them and suspended work on that hole until he could get out there to see it.  They ended up lowering the green surface back in that cove, but left the rock the way it was naturally.  The results are certainly unique and dramatic.


Greensite of the dropshot par 3 13th hole.


I wish it were clearer, but this is the best I have of the great par 5 16th hole.  As Matt described the busted tee shot down the initial landing area will give the player a chance to go at the green way in the distance tucked in behind the pines if the days hole location is left.  The faint of heart (I was one of them) will play up the ample right hand side and have a good approach angle into the green.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

Is it better than Friars Head, as GOLF DIGEST indicated?  Just curious for your take, since you are the only person I know to have played them both.

I'm sure the slope rating is higher.

[TEPaul]

Bill Schulz said;

"For those of you that prefer pure golf, Black Rock will probably be somewhat of a disappointment as the talented Jim Engh made literally no effort to offer a walkable course with his selected routing.  As a result, like other aesthetically pleasing but souless cartball venues such as Quintero, Wolf Creek and Pa Ko Ridge, Black Rock does not improve with repeated plays (the drama of the first round is always the best).
While Friar's Head is inspiring with its timeless routing and rhythm, Black Rock is more like an adrenaline inspired noisy motorcross with fiery bike crashes and 3.5 miles between the last hole and next (predictably) cliff hanging "all world" tee shot."

Bill:

Those two short paragraphs say so much in a golfer's thumbnail sketch of two golf courses that're apparently very good in very different ways. You sound like a modern day Bernard Darwin with those remarks. I mean that as a real compliment.

[cary lichtenstein]

I think a better way to phrase it is:

"A magic carpet ride that you never want to end"

If you like the adrenalin rush you get on the tees at 16 Cypress and 7 Pebble, the beauty of the 2nd shot at 8 at Pebble, then Black Rock is for you.

I played all 3 of Golf Digest best new private courses for 2003, it was an amazing year. All are worthy of placing in the top 100 in that publication.

Dallas National clearly is better than Colonial, Friar's Head is the Cypress Point of the east coast, a thrilling course, with outstanding topograpy done brilliantly by Coore and Crenshaw, and Jim Engh's Black Rock is "a magic carpet ride that you never want to end"

[George Pazin]

Is it just me, or is there quite a bit of contrast between those photos? Very interesting - thanks for the pics, Turboe. Hope the little man is doing well.

Bill S -

I agree with Tom P, that is a great succinct post.

Tom D -

I think Matt said he hasn't made it out to Friar's Head yet.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Doak, et al:

I have not played Friar's Head thus far so any group critique with Black Rock and Dallas National will not be possible just yet. Between Black Rock and Dallas National I would give the slightest of edges to DN because of the greater diversity and range of par-4's and on the par-3 side of the equation.

Let me mention that Black Rock has a similar shot value beyond the par-3 13th and 14th holes. The 2nd and 9th -- both are roughly 200 yards are equal type holes. The best of the two par-3's there are the uphill par-3 7th and the downhill par-3 14th. Both are well done holes.

The issue for Engh as I see it is that he has a tendency to include five par-3's and five par-5's in a few of his designs (Hawktree, Lakota Canyon, come quickly to mind). When you limit the number of your par-4's (the backbone of any design in my mind) you must then make sure to provide the ones you do create with the greatest sense of diversity and elasticity. That doesn't happen at Black Rock. Yes, the mid-length par-4's are quite good -- the 4th, 6th, 11th and 18th -- are all solid holes. But, with only eight par-4's the essence of the course overdoses on par-5's and par-3's and that is not really a downside PROVIDED each of them is unique from the other. That doesn't happen at Black Rock and frankly would be difficult for any architect to attain because of the demands par-5 holes alone present when designing. Par-5's are tough because they can be too easy for the better player if they are too weak or simply out of the league for the weaker player if designed too strong.

What's amazing is that Engh often designs winning par-5's (the 16th here is simply world class in my book) but even on that score the downhill par-5 8th (despite being the #1 handicap hole) is really a cut'n paste of others you play at Black Rock and is not really at the same high level although it is still quite good.

On the par-3 front Engh also comes up a bit short with the duplicate 2nd / 9th and 13th / 14th holes.

As I have stated -- the par-4's for me at any course are the backbone of a layout. You need to present the fullest range and diversity because these holes constitute the bulk of the design. When you chop down the number of par-4's to eight total the pressure is on the architect to deliver a much more comprehensive package particularly when having limited number to include in the final design.

I salute Engh for a solid effort -- Black Rock is by far the best of what I have played thus far from his handiwork and deserves plenty of attention -- particularly from those classic "noses in the sky" types who frown upon any course designed by someone outside their favorite circle of designers. It is totally fun and enjoyable and all range of players will marvel at what he has done with such a unique and stunning canvass.

On the fun side of the meter -- Engh doesn't disappoint. However, from the standpoint of hole differentiation it's something I'm still waiting for him to include in future work.
I'm at Lakota Canyon on Thursday and will be interesting to see what he has done there.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill S:

Have to disagree with you -- people can easily walk Black Rock. In fact -- there is also a full caddie program for those wishing to use them when there.

Let me also mention that repeat visits to place like Paa-Ko Ridge and Wolf Creek, to name just two, have always been enjoyable in my book. Clearly, tastes are involved here and for those with a very specific and narrow sense of what golf should be I can fathom your favoring the more "classic" school of design thought.

I just have a greater sense of adventure.

[Mike_Sweeney]

For those of you that prefer pure golf, Black Rock will probably be somewhat of a disappointment as the talented Jim Engh made literally no effort to offer a walkable course with his selected routing.  As a result, like other aesthetically pleasing but souless cartball venues such as Quintero, Wolf Creek and Pa Ko Ridge, Black Rock does not improve with repeated plays (the drama of the first round is always the best).

Bill,

You really captured many of my thoughts about Pine Hill in NJ with this post.

Just curious if you have played The Plantation Course in Hawaii, and if you are a fan of it, and how does it compare with BR. I have not played either.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Let me answer you comments in this way.

I never said walking Black Rock is easy for those with an iron lung attached to their hip!

The course does have its inclines in certain places but minus one or two areas it is walkable -- far from a host of other mountain courses I have played in and around the Rockies to name just one general locale.

Let me mention for full disclosure purposes I played with the host pro Greg Rowley -- a superb gentleman -- and we did in fact ride. He mentioned to me people can use caddies who will carry bags if requested.

Regarding the other courses you listed let me say this -- I am not a fan of Quintero -- it is too formulaic of Rees Jones style courses and fails to work in concert with the desert terrain that is Peoria, AZ. I am a big fan of Paa-Ko Ridge and yes that course can be walked by those who are in shape. If someone is dragging a beer belly and the only time they walk is to the toilet or to the bank than doing likewise at Paa-Ko will likely be out of the equation.

Wolf Creek is a much more demanding walk and for 5% of the players a likely cart ride. If memory serves -- management there insists upon cart usage.

I also thoroughly enjoyed Chirichua at Desert Mountain and its walkable too. Have you played the new Outlaw course? I also will state that Sanctuary is not a good course in my opinion. I didn't like the massive shot distortion that such a hilly site provides. Engh did as well as he could but frankly it goes beyond the edge for me.

Lastly, I am a big fan of Chapparal Pines in Payson, AZ. I see it among the top five courses in the Grand Canyon State and salute the work of Gary Panks / David Graham there.

Bill -- Jim Engh is more than just a "novelty architect." That's really back handed slap if I may say. He is not afraid in taking chances with his designs. I like the edginess in spots and to be fair there are times when he overshoots the "fun" element. Sometimes he compromises the totality of what hole differentiation should be about as I previously indicated with his desire to include five par-5's and five par-3's in a few of his designs.

Jim Engh can design a first rate par-5 hole -- the 16th at Black Rock is certainly one of the best risk and reward type holes I have played. I've been fortunate to have played a fair share of modern courses and few people -- I mean very
few -- understand how to provide such a hole into the mixture. The issue I have with Engh is being able to develop a course with a bit more hole sophistication than simply offering the overkill of par-3's and par-5's. Few architects -- likely you can count them on one hand -- can deliver a winning design with five of such holes in each category in one design.

Bill -- please enough of the "I know what I'm looking at attitude" regarding subtle points of golf. Maybe you missed them when gazing all over the place at Black Rock! Ditto the qualities of Paa-Ko and Wolf Creek.

Bill -- some people on GCA have this thing for the "classic" style looking course and I do enjoy my share. However, my tastes are not so limited or narrowly accepting to diversity. No matter -- to each his own.  

[cary lichtenstein]

Bill:

I too feel that to say Jim Engh is a "novelty architect" is an inappropriate comment considering his talent, and the body of work he has produced.

Cary

[Matt_Ward]

I just played one of Jim Engh's newest designs called Lakota Canyon in New Castle, CO. Time prevents me from going into full details but suffice to say it's beyond the likes of Hawktree and Redlands Mesa, two other successes he designed.

Lakota Canyon is one course more will be heard about as we move into 2005.

I'll post more this weekend ...

P.S. By the way Black Rock is still a treat for those who get the opportunity to play it.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill S:

I can honestly say my rides are split fairly evenly between ride and walk. I grew up playing the game by walking and I do whenever I can or the facility permits.

I also stated that I don't find the mandatory usage of carts objectionable PROVIDED the ride is merely a secondary factor to the playing of the course. When the cart ride becomes the be-all end-all then I do have an issue with that. Ditto with courses that mandate that carts stay on paths.

Bill -- let's be a bit more candid -- do you simply play the bulk of your rounds at extremely private clubs where caddie programs are part and parcel of the experience when playing those respective facilities? My portfolio of course visits in any given year is quite varied from private, resort, daily fee and taxpayer owned courses.

Bill -- when you speak about "our" differences I have to say I'm still waiting for you to seriously exmaine the courses you mentioned and tell me what their shortcomings are in greater detail. You simply lobbed names like Paa-Ko, Chirichua, Wolf Creek, and a few others. Where's the beef partner? I routinely post detailed critiques on the holes and routings of the courses I play. I just don't lob a comment that someone as talented as Jim Engh is only a "novelty architect."

Please don't be offended but it helps to flush out one's opinions with a bit more analysis than simply tagging some sort of easy-to-apply spin tag.

On the subject of Jim Engh I would like to know if you like any of his work and if so why?

[cary lichtenstein]

Bill-I think from your posts, and I may interpret them incorrectly, that is when you encounter a course, that makes carts pretty much mandatory, that you immediately dismiss it as bad or novelty architecture.

If that is the case, you should clearly state that and try to refrain from playing those courses as I can not see how you could possibly enjoy those other than to throw out derogatory barbs.

I for one, try to look at every course for what it is, just as I look at Art. For example, I never like Picasso, but I always liked Roy Lichtenstein.

I like both Ballybunion course, whereas most people don't like the Cashen Course.

I don't get minialism except when the site is exceptional, and then I love it if properly executed.

I hated Iron Bridge, which was mountain golf poorly executed.

I like some of Tom Fazio's work, and not most of it. Ditto with Nicklaus.

[DMoriarty]

"So just how good is Black Rock?"  Not good at all.  

I dont have much time to get into it right now, but I'll touch on a few points.  

--  This is absolutely beautiful country . . . too bad you cannot see it or feel it from the course.    Almost every fairway is severely concave either by mounding or by grading down.  Since the photos are bird's eye, they don't do the trough fairways the injustice they deserve.

-- The green locations are worse . . . usually surrounded by a horseshoe of grass faces . . . the golfer has the tremendous experience of repeatedly hitting their approach shots into greens surrounded by 70's type green shag toilet seat covers.  

If I recall correctly, the ninth is a perfect example,  play up a hill toward the clubhouse into a green surrounded by grass walls . . . then trudge up to your cart, drive just a bit and be on flat ground, with tremendous view potential . . .

-- Fortunately, many of the tees are elevated and some of the cart paths were built well above the course (like the ninth,) so one can enjoy a few views from the tees and paths.  But while on the course one hardly knows that one is in Idaho . . . .

-- As for the greens themselves, I must have missed something.   I found them to be true and in terrific shape but with fairly flat and boring flag areas sometimes seperated by absurdly steep steps up or down to the next pinnable area.  I recall one green with a back corner level that was an abrupt three feet below the rest of the green . . . of course since it was surrounded by steep grass faces there was little danger of getting into any real trouble.   Phony feeling is the sense I got.  

-- Walkable?  Matt, I like to walk when I can, but I would hardly describe this place as walkable.  For the most part I walked without my bag, but had I not caught rides between holes, I'd have had trouble keeping up with the rest of my group, and they were hardly quick.  I was huffing and puffing just from climbing out of the green sites. . . . At the very least, there are abrupt elevation changes and long treks between tees and greens.  

-- As for caddies, I was under the impression (from my forecaddie, I think) that they did not lug bags, but maybe I am mistaken.   Anyway, I played on a very busy day and saw no walkers and only forecaddies.   Certainly the course does not emphasize walking . . . the current club champion gets exclusive use of a black 'club champion golf cart.'

--  The water features are way over done and distracted from the natural beauty of the setting.  It seems Mr. Engh saved most of his big tricks for the three or four (?) holes which play over the ridge in view of the lake. . . .
. . . But with a view of beautiful Rockford Bay and the lake, why tack some tacky waterfalls onto the slope above the hole?  
. . . And if you insist on the tacky waterfall, why build a large berm between the water and the course, taking it out of play and increasing feeling of phonyness?  
. . . So you want to use the fortresslike rocks to surround one of the greens?  A bold decision which didnt work in my opinion . . . pinball for the mid and high handicappers.  Fun until someone loses an eye.
 . . . and is it really necessary to build yet another waterfall and a moat to compliment your castle walls?   How about a fire breathing dragon or two? Talk about overprotection-- this green is the Mordor of golf.  

Matt, might I suggest that this review in particular is written only from the perspective of the long strong player?   I doubt many members softspikes will (or should) touch the tees you played.  While I didnt see many strategic choices at all I can see how you saw so many.  By your description most of the choices were dictated by one's ability to hit the ball a long ways; go or no go decisions.   I can assure you that for the vast majority of golfers these arent choices at all.   Don't get me wrong, the course didnt strike me as all that difficult, just not interesting.  Just another slog with plenty of forced water features and pretty views from a few tees.  
___________________________

Tom Doak

I've played both courses.  They don't compare, they only contrast.  Frankly I am baffled on how anyone could put Black Rock in the same category as Friars Head.   In time this will go down as yet another example of how a high priced extensively hyped course can overwhelm the ratings.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Maybe you need to get in better shape?

I was told by the Director of Golf -- who I played with -- that caddies (carrying one's bag) can be arranged.

David -- you must be smoking some serious weed if you think Black Rock was a slog! There's only one par-4 over 440 yards and most of the par-5's generally play downhill. Where's the slog partner?

David -- I write my comments from what I see and I try to encapsulate comments on how the course plays from a wide perspective. I also touched base with a number of members on hand the day I was there and they didn't indicate to me the course was a slog -- they were in the range of 15-20 handicaps.

David -- frankly I disagree with you on the outcome of the 11th hole in particular. You didn't like it -- so be it. I did. In fact, I have spoken with a few raters (Digest, Magazine and Golfweek types) who thought that hole was well done. You must have forgotten the neat green design that is there as well.

I also have to seriously question your knowledge of the green contours and their general dimensions. Engh has carefully positioned enough contours to keep players from simply landing the ball "anywhere" on the green and simply assuming that a quick two-putt is in the cards. If you care to address specific holes I would be happy to state my comments on the hole(s) in question.

I also stated that the back-to-back par-3's at Black Rock are simply repeat shot values. I didn't care for the downhill 13th because it doesn't do much expect add for the waterfall complex to the left of the green. The 14th is a different matter. There the green is divided by a rib that cuts through the middle of the green. The approach has be pinpoint to get close.

I also stated that having five par-5's and five par-3's can be difficult because of similiarities that can happen. The 2nd and 9th are also fairly close to each other in terms of requirements. On the flip side the uphill par-3 7th and and the 14th are both good holes IMHO.

The par-5's are also well done by Engh. If you think there is a shortcoming to them from an architectural perspetcive please provide as much detal as you can. I'd like to learn from your thoughts.

Thanks ...

[TEPaul]

" the golfer has the tremendous experience of repeatedly hitting their approach shots into greens surrounded by 70's type green shag toilet seat covers."

David:

You know me---I think vast differences in golf architecture is actually a very good thing. Greens that're surrounded by 70's type green shag toilet seat covers, huh? Cool!!

Does it take any kinda special chipping stroke to recover out of green shag toilet seat covers??  

[DMoriarty]

David:

Maybe you need to get in better shape?

Without a doubt.  But I have no trouble keeping up with walkers or carts on a course built for walking.  

I was told by the Director of Golf -- who I played with -- that caddies (carrying one's bag) can be arranged.

 
You said that before and I believed you the first time.  My guess is that you can arrange just about anything at Black Rock.  But the undisputed facts are as follows:  Black Rock was not designed to be a walking course; and the members do not walk it.    

David -- you must be smoking some serious weed if you think Black Rock was a slog! There's only one par-4 over 440 yards and most of the par-5's generally play downhill. Where's the slog partner?

I dont equate slogs with long par fours. (My home course has 5 par fours of 450 yds or more, and whatever it may be it is not a slog.)   As I said above there is very little interesting about the course for a mid- to high handicapper like myself, and that the course was by no means fun.   Not interesting and not fun =  The kind of round one is glad to see end = slog.

David -- I write my comments from what I see and I try to encapsulate comments on how the course plays from a wide perspective. I also touched base with a number of members on hand the day I was there and they didn't indicate to me the course was a slog -- they were in the range of 15-20 handicaps.

Yes Matt I've heard this before, but read your post and tell me where you are considering the short bad golfer.  The only place I see is where you compliment Mr. Engh for piling on the short hitter relative to the long one.  Hey Jim thanks for leaving the short hitter with a blind approach on that par five . . . my ability to easily reach the green in two wasnt enough advantage for me.  Now that is classic Wardian empathy!  

David -- frankly I disagree with you on the outcome of the 11th hole in particular. You didn't like it -- so be it. I did. In fact, I have spoken with a few raters (Digest, Magazine and Golfweek types) who thought that hole was well done. You must have forgotten the neat green design that is there as well.

 
Well if the raters liked it it must be really good . . .  but raters' keen observations aside, I found the hole to be ridiculous and way over the top.  Some of the rocks may be real but if they all are then those are the fakest looking real rocks I have ever seen.  

The hole would be bad anywhere but I've got to further question the thought process behind distracting from one of the better vistas with a set from the Six Million Dollar Man series.

The neat green design?  I must have been too busy dodging ricochets (looking like John Belushi in the Matrix) to notice.  __________________

As for the rest, I'll take your word for it.   Your opinions about the par fives, par threes, etc. have little to do with my critique.  In fact aside from going Bill O'Reilly on me (accusing me of being a stoned slacker) you pretty much ignore my general comments regarding the concave green locations and fairways, the neglect of the natural beauty of the site, the overdone and distracting man made features, etc.  Care to comment?

While you are at it, how about the way they used the highest plateaued property for the clubhouse and for housing, relegating the course to whatever was left?  
 

[Jonathan Cummings]

Four courses on Lake Coeur d'Alene??

Black Rock is about to have some local competition.  I have on my desk the routing plans for the Fazio course located across the lake from BR.  The course is being built on a bluff with frequent views of the lake.  The course is situated above Arrorpoint and features four lakes, lodgepole pine forests, heathlands-like fields and a preserved 100-year old farm which will play as part of several holes.  There will be a few Mirabel-type homes (the Mirabel folks are building the course)set back but included on the property.  The clubhouse will be a lodge affair on a bluff looking north toward Coeur d'Alene.  Ground will break in March with an opening in 2006-7.

The name of the Fazio course is still being debated but just 5 miles east of this site on 500 acres overlooking Beauty Bay and the Wolf Lodge district of lake CdA (bald eagle preserve), another course is being routed by Hurdzan/Fry.  So far, this one is hush hush and I know few details.  I know the property though and it is much higher off the lake than BR or the Fazio course.  It will afford dramatic views below but also less dramatic views of I90 on the other side of the lake.

Who knows how the dust will settle but would it not be funny if in 5 years BR is the third best course on Lake Coeur d'Alene??

JC

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I apologize for assuming you had played Friars Head ... I wasn't paying attention.  I haven't played Black Rock so I can't hold up my half of the comparison, either, but maybe you should have a little more respect for the couple of respondents who have indeed played both courses, since I know you place great value on actual playing experience.

I would like to clarify one point:  the director of golf at Black Rock would be trained, like every other d of g in the country, to tell a golf course rater that his course is walkable, so as not to lose points in the GOLF DIGEST voting.  This doesn't necessarily mean that walking is a legitimate option or even a reasonable possibility ... if it was, the director of golf would have walked the course with you.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Please -- I didn't fall off the tunip truck and assume that what I am told by course personnel is gospel. I have a healthy bit of skepticism with all such comments and I do likewise for architects who post here and are touting -- direcrtly or otherwise -- their own views of design versus that of their competition.

The course at Black Rock is no more difficult to walk than Bethpage Black. If members opt to walk that's their prerogative. I simply stated that walking the course is not out of the question.

Tom -- last point --- you say I should have respect for people who have played both Black Rock and Friar's Head -- who said I don't? I simply made reference to Black Rock and Dallas National -- two top contenders for Best New Private by Digest from a year ago. I never said anything about Friar's Head and won't till I do.

Jonathan:

From what I gathered in speaking with a few members the TF site is equal or beyond the land at Black Rock and I believe the name of the course will be called Charbeneau (sp?).

I believe the section for the Hurdzan & Fry design is near Arrow Point?

David:

The best way to examine golf courses is to provide as much hole-by-hole detail as possible. I critique the qualities of the respective holes, how they fall into the overall routing and how well the architect uses the routing to showcase all the unique aspects of the property in question. If that doesn't fit into your analysis so be it. It does for me.

The fairway and green shapes were fine by my reckoning. They weren't protected by containment mounding to ensure that wild shots would be protected at all costs. You need to work-the-ball in a number of spots and Engh provided a layout that balances quite nicely the proposition between length and accuracy. I fail to see in any manner, shape or form the "slog" you are speaking about.

The putting surfaces were contoured appropriately and at all times from what I saw it required a deft touch with your irons to place the ball in the proper area. They were not silly or over-the-top IMHO.

I have mentioned a few shortcomings in the design -- Engh used the outside slope for the back nine and simply got pinned in with the back-to-back par-3's on that side. The par-3 14th is a solid short hole -- however, there was a clear need IMHO for something different with the other par-3. When courses feature back-to-back par-3's they need to be clearly different in terms of their shot values / appearances, etc, etc. A classic example is Cypress Point's 15th an 16th holes. I'm not suggesting that other courses emulate the sheer greatness of those two holes (who could?) but the ones on the back nine at Black Rock shoudl have been a bit more differentiated.

The same thing holds true for the 2nd and 9th holes. They are roughly the same yardage and the shots required for the approach are fairly similar although the 9th green is a bit more challenging with either a front position or one that extends to the far left side.

I would also liked to have seen a bit more differntiation of the par-4's because the number of them is quite small ( since Engh opted for five par-5's and five par-3's.

Let me speak about the 11th hole -- the rocks that are present on the approach work. If you think they are not natural or out-of-place from a natural perspective that's your opinion -- it's not mine. If you play the appropriate shot you will not encounter them. They are no more an issue that holes that have out-of-bounds markers that are pushed right up to the edge of any putting surface (see the par-5 5th at Royal Porthcawl as just on example).

The green sits in a wonderful setting and the two-level green makes you play the appropriate shot to get back to any location used.  I frankly, think a back right or left spot is quite testing and fair.

When you say the course was not interesting for mid-handicapper like yourself I guess the strategic qualities of the par-5's escaped your attention. Each of them requires a good deal of thought when playing them. Like I said before -- the multi-option par-5 16th is simply a world class hole. I also think the ending two holes that follow are well done and quite fun to play. I can provide other examples from a host of other holes there.

David -- I talked at length with mid-handicappers when at Black Rock and while they are members who are wont to defend their layout the comments I heard were quite logical and defensible. They shared with me the different options they routinely use when playing the holes there. In fact, Black Rock puts even more pressure on the better player because all the junk that you see on a number of holes becomes more of an issue for them.

David -- the land used for the front nine works very well. I think one can raise the point that working the back nine around the outside perimeter for lake views is certainly a point to consider. I really liked the par-4 10th and 11th holes. I believe each of them serves a different role and the shot values / requirements are well done. The issue is the two par-3's that come back-to-back.

The location of the clubhouse didn't seem to me to be an issue -- ditto the housing plans that I was told about.

David -- have you played any other Jim Engh designed course? If you have the inclination / energy you should play Engh's new design Lakota Canyon in New Castle, CO. I frankly think the layout there is even better than Black Rock.

[DMoriarty]

Look Matt, you liked the course and good for you, I'm glad you enjoyed it.  But there is more to great design than making Matt Ward's butt pucker.  

Your hole by hole detailed analysis is always an interesting read, but fails you here.  You seem to have seen the holes, but missed the course.  Do you really think he maximized the potential of this beautiful site?  

If you didnt notice the trough fairways and cratered green locations, then you must have been really grinding, because they were everywhere.  

The fairway and green shapes were fine by my reckoning. They weren't protected by containment mounding to ensure that wild shots would be protected at all costs.

 
I dont know the reason why most of the playing surfaces set in concave locations, but they certainly were concave.  If you tell me it wasnt for containment then I will believe you, but that leaves the question unanswered . . . Why hide the beauty of what is around you?

You need to work-the-ball in a number of spots and Engh provided a layout that balances quite nicely the proposition between length and accuracy. I fail to see in any manner, shape or form the "slog" you are speaking about.

 
Unless they are brilliant, most courses which focus on your vaunted balance between length and accuracy feel like slogs to me.  

Let me speak about the 11th hole -- the rocks that are present on the approach work. If you think they are not natural or out-of-place from a natural perspective that's your opinion -- it's not mine. If you play the appropriate shot you will not encounter them. They are no more an issue that holes that have out-of-bounds markers that are pushed right up to the edge of any putting surface (see the par-5 5th at Royal Porthcawl as just on example).

Matt, most golfers are able to play the appropriate shot a few times a season.  Here a slightly misappropriate shot could lead to not just a high score, but a black eye.   Worse, if the site is so great (which it may have been) then it certainly doesnt need the bells and whistles.

When you say the course was not interesting for mid-handicapper like yourself I guess the strategic qualities of the par-5's escaped your attention. Each of them requires a good deal of thought when playing them.

Matt the 'thought' at this course all involves how far one can hit the ball.  Not really much to think about for most.

David -- I talked at length with mid-handicappers when at Black Rock and while they are members who are wont to defend their layout the comments I heard were quite logical and defensible. They shared with me the different options they routinely use when playing the holes there.

Asking the members their opinions when they've just dropped between 500k to a million plus (club, lot, and house?)  Give a break Matt.

In fact, Black Rock puts even more pressure on the better player because all the junk that you see on a number of holes becomes more of an issue for them.

Perhaps this is for a different thread, but this is Wardian logic at its most revealing.   A course that slopes at 150 puts more pressure on the better golfer??  Go figure.  

The location of the clubhouse didn't seem to me to be an issue -- ditto the housing plans that I was told about.

Did you happen to notice how the clubhouse and the houses are all on higher ground??

David -- have you played any other Jim Engh designed course? If you have the inclination / energy you should play Engh's new design Lakota Canyon in New Castle, CO. I frankly think the layout there is even better than Black Rock.

Havent had the pleasure.   I live a charmed life, but not one which allows me infinite golf travel to play second courses by designs who underwealmed me on what are supposed to be their best efforts.   But next time I am in New Castle, CO and have six hours, and have an invitation (or the green fee) I'll be sure and check it out and let you know what I think.

[cary lichtenstein]

Reading this thread=Priceless
Arguing that Black Rock is a wonderful course=Hopeless
Amen

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Let's start again shall we ...

Black Rock is not a 150 slope type course. That is way too high from my vast experience   with such courses.

The reason courses feel like slogs to you may be uniquely tied to your understanding of quality golf design. I never said Black Rock should be canonized but it's far from being a slog in my eyes.

Regarding the beauty of the course you may need to use glasses because I saw it front and center the minute I stepped onto the course. If you missed it -- then maybe you're eyes need to be opened further than they were.

You see #11 as bells and whistles -- I don't. End of story on that account. You won't convince me and the reverse is likewise. You also forgot the strategic qualities that Engh provides on a vast array of other holes.

David -- I love when I mention the comments of others, Simply put -- since other comments don't exactly dovetail with your self beliefs you utterly dismiss them. How convenient and utterly so David. the people I met with were those who were both members and nonmembers. Their comments were quite frank and to the point. But, since the comments were not in agreement with your take these people must be delusional or way off base like me. There you again David -- being David.

David -- you must have missed the fact that a number of holes are on higher ground than the clubhouse and the surrounding homes ... check out the tees on #5 and #8, to name just two holes. Your comment here is way off base.

I love your put down with the last comment. David -- you have a very narrow sense of golf course design -- so be it. You don't know what you're missing with Lakota Canyon and frankly it would be lost on you anyway.