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David_Tepper

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Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« on: October 05, 2004, 01:43:13 PM »
For anyone interested, there is an article in the Scotsman that previews the Golf Monthly rankings of courses in GB&I.
Old Head and the K Club (North) have moved into the Top 20 and Royal Dornoch has dropped to #56(!!!).

The link (which may not work) is:

http://sport.scotsman.com/golf.cfm?id=1159902004

cary lichtenstein

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2004, 02:40:52 PM »
I don't get alot of the ranking. I never saw anything special about Waterville, and I loved Royal Dornock.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2004, 02:50:40 PM »
Thanks for the tip-off, David.  I'll try to get hold of a copy tomorrow and post the full list.  They never used to go beyond 100 so perhaps the people at the new clubs have pushed.  I don't suppose they'll be including any old clubs amongst the new recruits, such as The Addington.  I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.  I gave up my subscription to Golf Monthly when a journalist with a vast ego wrote an appalling article about playing TOC backwards and how the American visitors to St Andrews (typical stereotype dress and behaviour) wouldn't understand or appreciate.  I was disgusted and ashamed.  Why do you think I read this site so avidly?  Because there are so many well informed and erudite Americans (and other non-Brits) who know so much more about British courses and their architecture than I ever will.  What's more, that wretched journalist would have understood as much about that event at Painswick and the people taking part as I do about the Finnish and Hungarian languages.  It makes me boil!

Bill Gayne

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2004, 02:53:14 PM »
I'm not sure why The Scotsman is picking this up now. It's actually from last May. Attached is a link to the Golf Monthly site with the entire list.

http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/top120courses/top_120_courses/

David_Tepper

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2004, 03:01:35 PM »
Bill -

This list will be published in the November, 2004 issue of Golf Monthly, which hits the newstands this week. Where it shows the date of 05/10/2004, you are looking at the European way of listing the date - which shows the day/the month/the year.
In the US, we would show the date as 10/05/2004.  I do not believe this list was published back in May.

DT
 

Bill Gayne

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2004, 03:07:00 PM »
David,

Thanks for the clarification.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2004, 03:07:25 PM by Bill Gayne »

George Pazin

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2004, 03:07:18 PM »
1. St Andrews (Old)
2. Royal County Down Golf Club
3. Westin Turnberry Resort (Ailsa)
4. Muirfield Golf Club
5. Waterville Golf Links
6. Ballybunnion Golf Club (Old)
7. Gleneagles (King's)
8. Royal Birkdale Golf Club
9. Royal Lytham & St Annes Golf Club
10. Swinley Forest Golf Club
 
11. Kingsbarns
12. Old Head
13. Lahinch (Old)
14. Loch Lomond
15. Royal Portrush (Dunluce)
16. Carnoustie (Championship)
17. Royal St George's
18. Royal Liverpool
19. K Club (North)
20. St George's Hill
 
21. Portmarnock (Old)
22. Machrihanish
23. The European Club
24. Silloth-on-Solway
25. Royal Troon (Old)
26. Western Gailes
27. Hillside
28. Royal Porthcawl
29. Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin)
30. Saunton (East)
 
31. Gleneagles (Queen's)
32. Formby
33. Sunningdale (Old)
34. St Andrews (New)
35. Nairn
36. Southport & Ainsdale
37. Tralee
38. Killarney (Killeen)
39. Aberdovey
40. Druids Glen
 
41. North Berwick
42. Wentworth (West)
43. Ganton
44. Royal St Davids
45. Wentworth (East)
46. Sunningdale (New)
47. St Enodoc (Church)
48. Walton Heath (Old)
49. Prestwick
50. Liphook
 
51. Saunton (West)
52. Trevose (Championship)
53. Mount Juliet
54. Seaton Carew
55. Isle of Purbeck
56. Royal Dornoch
57. The Machrie
58. Ladybank
59. The Wisley (Garden & Mill)
60. Royal West Norfolk
 
61. Royal Aberdeen
62. Ashburnham
63. Moortown
64. County Louth
65. Ballyliffin (Glashedy)
66. Royal North Devon
67. Burnham & Berrow
68. Pennard
69. The Berkshire (Red)
70. Blairgowrie (Rosemount)
 
71. Bearwood Lakes
72. Ballybunion (Cashen)
73. Worplesden
74. The Berkshire (Blue)
75. Hunstanton
76. West Lancashire
77. Shiskine
78. Ashridge
79. Castletown
80. Rosapenna (Sandy Hills Links)
 
81. The K Club (South)
82. St Pierre (Old Course)
83. Luffenham Heath
84. Tenby
85. West Sussex
86. Woking
87. Parkstone
88. Woburn (Dukes)
89. Glasgow Gailes
90. Lindrick
 
91. Woburn (Duchess)
92. Enniscrone
93. The Grove
94. West Hill
95. Southerndown
96. Ferndown (Old)
97. Lundin Links
98. St Mellion (Nicklaus)
99. Gullane (No. 1)
100. Notts (Hollinwell)
 
101. Slaley Hall (Hunting)
102. Nefyn & District
103. Fota Island
104. Montrose (Medal)
105. Rye
106. Cruden Bay
107. Hanbury Manor
108. Dooks
109. Fulford
110. Skibo
 
111. The Belfry (Brabazon)
112. New Zealand
113. St Andrews Bay (Devlin)
114. Turnberry (Kintyre)
115. Little Aston
116. Hayling
117. Royal Cinque Ports
118. Gleneagles (PGA Centenary)
119. Celtic Manor (Wentwood Hills)
120. Royal Ashdown Forest (Old)
 
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

ForkaB

Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2004, 03:13:40 PM »
The best thing about this list is how democratic it is.  From the website it seems that the only thing you need to be a part of the rating panel is the ability and willingness to fill in an on-line form.  Even JakaB and Tom Paul could be raters! ;)

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2004, 03:25:07 PM »
Rye #105 (?!?)
Cruden Bay #106(!?!?!?!)

Yipes!

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2004, 05:16:04 PM »
I'de like to know what they are smoking, having Royal Dornoch sandwiched between The Isle of Purbeck and Ladybank? Aren't mind bending drugs illegal in the UK?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mike Hendren

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2004, 05:25:07 PM »
Rye #105 (?!?)
Cruden Bay #106(!?!?!?!)

Yipes!

28 and 29 places below a 12 hole golf course, no less!
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

rgkeller

Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2004, 05:39:03 PM »
Gleneagles??

johnk

Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2004, 05:40:18 PM »
It's good that Rye, Dornoch and Cruden Bay are moving down on the list.  Think about it.

Philip Gawith

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2004, 08:52:58 AM »
i am pleased that the new pat ruddy course at rosapenna - the sandy hills links - has made the list at number 80. that is the only nice thing i can think of saying. to see the wisley and dornoch within touching distance of each other is enough to make you weep.

David_Tepper

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2004, 09:09:08 AM »
The biggest upside surprise to me was seeing Swinley Forest at #10 (and I suppose Gleneagles King's at #7). It is a course I know very little about. Is Swinley Forest anywhere near that good? Can anyone out there make a case for it being at Top 10 or Top 20 course?

JakaB

Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2004, 09:12:42 AM »
I take great personal satisfaction in knowing that while Shivas is in Chicago learning the ins and outs of why Rustic Canyon is positioned about 105 on the Golfweek list he finds his beloved Rye 105 on this list.....I look forward to his educated response upon his return...

Andy Levett

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2004, 09:40:26 AM »
I wonder how Alwoodley feel about not making the list at all - especially with Moortown at 63 and even Fulford at 109.
And I'm fond of Seaton Carew but never thought I'd see it head Dornoch in a ranking.

On the other hand there are some GCA favourites such as Machrihanish, North Berwick and St Enodoc that are ranked a lot higher than in the last Golf World Top 100 (new one is also out this month). Pennard makes a list for the first time - in at 68. Ashridge too.


ForkaB

Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2004, 09:44:48 AM »
David

Swinley is a fine golf course with some exquisite architecture, and the overall experience of playing there is not to be missed--as friendly, low key and comfortable as an old leather chair.  That being said, it is a very short course with today's technology, and because it is set up for members, the green speeds are slower than required to give the nicely contoured greens the necessary bite.  I would put it solidly within that group of "superb but not quite big enough" group of British and Irish courses such as Prestwick, Rye, and Lahinch.  Gleneagles (Kings and Queens) both probably fall just outside that group.

I wouldn't worry about this list too much as it is expressly a "vote" of a self-selected group of Golf Monthly readers.  I really does not deserve dissecting, even by those of us who arfe intrigued by ratings.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2004, 02:34:23 PM »
I owe Golf Monthly an apology.  It was Golf World that published that patronising article, not Golf Monthly.  The confusion arose because Golf Monthly also issues a Top 100 list in November.  In fairness, Golf World's is usually somewhat more credible than this piece of fiction.

Paul_Turner

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2004, 04:08:10 PM »
That's a pretty terrible list.  But at least it's different;  don't expect many shock from Golf World's effort.  

David.  Yes I think Swinley is worthy.  Take a look at Ran's profile.  It might be short, but it's tough;  plenty of long 4s so it tests your long game.  And it should really play to a par 67 or 68 (I think they currently list it as a 69 by forcing the 5th and 15th into par 5s from the backs).  At about 6000 yards what is that equivalent yardage for a par 72 ?  Probably 6800-7000 yds.  

It's my favourite inland course in GB&I.  And I know several others on the board agree.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2004, 04:11:47 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Brian_Ewen

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2004, 07:49:59 AM »
Course rankings handicapped by rogue entries

John huggan


AS regular watchers of Channel 4 will surely attest, we live in a world of lists, a fact that is especially true for those of us of a mind to take more than a passing interest in golf courses. They are everywhere, course lists that is - "best this", "greatest that" and "100 most the other".

The root of this particular indulgence is the world’s best-selling golf publication, Golf Digest, for which I write. The American magazine was first to come up with the idea of ranking courses - and thereby the not inconsiderable bonus of creating advertising revenue from those venues in the upper echelons - and the concept has inevitably spread. This month, for example, you can find in its pages a list of the 75 Best Golf Resorts.

All of which is fine and mildly stimulating, especially when the magazine distinguishes so readily between the ranking of courses and resorts. Two very different things, I’m sure you’ll agree.

Which is why it is easy to feel a little disappointed by the Top-120 course rankings in the current issue of Golf Monthly. Despite billing its first attempt in the ranking business as based purely on the quality of the courses, Monthly’s list is nothing of the sort, though it is hard to argue with the Old Course at St Andrews being No.1 in the British Isles under any criteria.

"The design and the condition of the courses was only part of our process," concedes GM’s editor, Jane Carter. "Ambience, off-course facilities and value for money are considered too."

While this explanation goes some way to uncovering a few of the startling anomalies contained in the list, it is also something that needs to be addressed Golf Digest style: is a particular venue simply a golf course or is it a so-called golf experience?

If it is the latter, how for example did the likes of Muirfield and Western Gailes get into Monthly’s top-ten, given how unwelcoming both places are to women golfers?

Golf Monthly’s failure to separate the course/resort argument has meant that, if we look at the 30 Scottish courses within the 120, the Kings course at Gleneagles is supposedly the fourth-best course in Scotland. Carnoustie is seventh, Royal Troon is 11th, and perhaps most ludicrously, Royal Dornoch is 16th.

Hands up all those in agreement with just that small taste of GM’s findings. Thought so.

There’s more. After writing down the 30 Caledonian courses worthy of mention in Monthly’s pages (I know, I need to get out more) it took me less than 30 seconds to come up with ten more not on the list - Dunbar, Luffness, Leven, Downfield, Barassie, Scots- craig, Murcar, Monifieth, Southerness and Lossiemouth - that are all miles better than, say, the 12-hole course at Shiskine on Arran, that is apparently the 21st-best course in our land. Come on! While Shiskine is a delightful place to be, the course is little better than pitch and putt.

In Golf Monthly’s defence, such lack of credibility will presumably be erased over time, as the number of rankers increases and the criteria under which they operate is tightened. Golf Digest currently engages in excess of 800 "panellists" - all of whom have handicaps of five or under - while Monthly has only 300 with a maximum handicap of 18.

Those numbers are important. More players ranking courses help to eliminate the statistical anomaly, and while the views of the hacker are obviously relevant, there is no doubt that the subtleties of course design are invariably lost on someone playing for bogeys rather than pars.

Then there is the touchy area of what rankers can and cannot accept from courses/resorts eager to have their premises rated as highly as possible. Golf Digest’s 800+ are instructed to call ahead and identify themselves if they wish to ask for a complimentary green fee, but they are not allowed to accept a free shirt, lunch, accommodation or airfare. Golf Monthly has yet to adopt a firm policy in such potentially touchy areas.

"It is true that we have a lot to think about," says Carter. "I have no doubt there are a few rogue entries at the moment. But we are aware that we have a responsibility to our readers to get this right. That’s why we have a panel of 30 [unidentified] members of the golf community to back up the findings of those on our ranking list. Through time we will eliminate what skews the numbers."

Judging by this first attempt, there is a long way to go in that department. Looking only at the courses with which I am most familiar, it is hard to believe that many East Lothian golfers would agree that all those silly holes on North Berwick’s enormously overrated west course - 14th in Scotland - are superior to those found just along the coast on Gullane’s No.1 course (24th). Or those at Dunbar, which fails to make the list at all.

There’s an idea, though. The last list ever: one containing the names of the 100 best courses that have not yet been included in a list.

BrianMcL

Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2004, 05:52:10 PM »
 
There are 120 courses in GB&I better than Carne?

Paul_Turner

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2004, 07:55:46 PM »
What Huggan doesn't mention is that the British and Irish clubs, and the playing public, completely forget about the rankings by the time the next issue arrives.  A ranking panel in GB&I?  Now that's a laugh.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2004, 09:39:45 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2004, 08:29:51 PM »
rgkeller,
Gleneagles??

I thought the same thing.
What am I missing that others see in Gleneagles ?
[/color]



john_stiles

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Re:Golf Monthly preview of GB&I rankings
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2004, 08:40:23 PM »
Gleneagles (Kings) belongs on the list, somewhere in top 50. How or why Gleneagles (Queens) is on the list is curious.

Kings has but a few uninteresting holes.  Queens is just the opposite, many plain holes.

Although I loved Machrie and would go back,  I don't think it should be anywhere near it's ranking.  It is a real throwback course and quirky with a few too many blind shots.