William Langford-Seth Raynor did their paths cross?

[ed_getka]

Last week while at Kingsley Club, we were talking to Ed Walker, one of the founders of TKC. He had recently played Barrington Hills, near Chicago, and was asking us if it was a Raynor course, due to the bunkering and green complexes he saw there. I looked it up when I got home and saw that Langford had done work there at some point after the original designers. I would presume that Langford's work is what Ed saw. Did Langford ever work with or near Raynor? I didn't see any indication in the Cornish/Whitten book of any connection.

[A_Clay_Man]

Ed- There was some recent speculation that Pete Dye had erroniously credited Seth Raynor to a course he had found formative. When in fact, it was a Langford.

WTG on the deuce!

[ed_getka]

Adam,
  Thanks. Do you remember where you saw the Pete Dye thing you are referring to? I don't have access to my books here at work, do you know who came first, Langford or Raynor?

[Steven_Biehl]

Langford was educated as an engineer, same as Raynor.  Langford was also a member of the Yale University golf team, but this was pre-Raynor.  Langford formed his partnership with Moreau in 1918, and Raynor joined up with MacDonald in 1907 at NGLA.  I would guess Langford had seen and was heavily influenced by MacDonald and Raynor.  I just don't know when and where.  

[George_Bahto]

Ed: I’ve always wondered if there was a connection but I have never found anything to link them.

What is most puzzling is that they seem to have been many miles apart geographically - except the few  middle of the country courses Seth built - Camargo - Chicago - Shoreacres - St Louis - Blue Mound and the Minn courses ........

Does anyone know if the Moreau style was? - different than Langford ??

gb

[A_Clay_Man]

Ed- I read that diddy during all the hoopla over Whistling Straits. Likely an interview, from a golf magazine, on the web. Sorry I can't be mo' specific.

[mark chalfant]

Ed, congrats on your recent eagle. I have a deep interest in
Langfords work and have been fortunate to play or to study many of his courses. I have not run across any archival material that indicates that they actually met. However there
couple of things to keep in mind. Langford lived in Chicago
for many decades. It is likely that he was very familiar
with Chicago Golf  Club both before and after Seth Raynor worked on Macdonalds layout there. Its tempting to think that
Langfords steep and deep bunkers evolved of the Macdonald school".However, I think its just as germane to consider if strategic elements (ie Chicagos bunkering) informed him. In particular the interesting angles of play and optional routes created  by diagonal traps or artful cross bunkers were an inspiration for Langfords exceptionally intelligent integration of bunkering. Sadly, many of Langfords finest designs with this  attribute are no longer in existence.



Finally, I have spoken with some respected architects about
this notion of cross fertilization. The consensus was that
Langford would have been quite familiar with Chicago Golf
club and Shoreacres. And although he probably knew St. Louis
its my impression that Chicago and Shoreacres(ravines) were more ingrained in his mind. Like most I am fascinated by his stellar green complexes.Yet I feel Langfords most enduring
contribution remains his masterful sense of strategy and his
gorgeous feel for naturalistic routings which often incorporate lovely ravines. Ed, I hope our paths cross soon.
Mark

 
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[ed_getka]

Mark,
  What are some of your favorite Langford courses? I have heard great things about Lawsonia, but am not familiar with the rest of his body of work.

Adam, Steven and George,
   Thanks for the responses. I will pass this info along to Ed Walker.

[George_Bahto]

ED: I'd like to look at  aerials of ORIGINAL Langford - from there perhaps I could help determine if the Raynor/Banks (Macdonald) strategies show ......  it's one thing about the bunker style which is so close but another about the hole strategies .  Ron Forse has been egging me on to look at the Langfoed style for years (so far I have not seen it - duh - so little time)

again, it should be the original version of the Langford courses

Does anyone have anything in that context that that I could look at?? It would be an interesting tie-in.

gb  (no 'ockey ..... boooooooooo)

[mark chalfant]

Ed,
Wakonda, Harrison hills,and Lawsonia are all really good.
Ive also heard through friends that Culver, IN  is super land
and a fun nine holes to play. Wakonda is an excellent routing
over very hilly property. there are several strong par 4s with
stirrring approaches complicated by deep gulleys or uphill
elevation changes to plateaus. The par fives are superb and the par 3 #14 is lovely. This one shotter is 185 to a volcano-like green.


Lawsonia is perhaps less pretty than Wakonda
but even more strategic. Harrison Hills is one my favorite
courses by Langford, or anybody for that matter. Take a look
at Rans profile.It has has great variety,wonderful movement in the fairways, good bunkering and just enough quirk without going overboard. One,two, sixteen and #18 are especially good. I wrote an opinion essay on on this site that may give you further ideas. I hope this helps. Mark

[Scott_Burroughs]

Don't forget about Skokie, where Langford did a lot of work there on the Ross re-design of the original Bendelow when they obtained more land.  The bunkering is very reminsicent of some Raynor bunkering, such as at Yeamans Hall.

[A_Clay_Man]

I think one of the similarities might be the dramatic green complexes.  However, One of Lawsonias fairways rather cool features, are the ridges that intrude on the line of instinct, perpendicularly. Other holes have just the right amount of centerline features, that distort the distances.

Variety, is certainly a word I would use to characterize Lawsonia. Each of the examples I just gave above aren't themes or repeated to the extent of uniform, but rather fondly recalled aspects, presented in varying ways, scattered throughout the whole package.

[RJ_Daley]

In further considering the cross fertilization theory, I have looked at trying to find some connection with the people that developed Lawsonia into what they termed a "Scotish Links" and their possible relationship with Chicago Golf Club or Shoreacres.  

The Lawsons died before Langford was engaged to build the Scotish Links.  The founders of the land, Jessie and Victor Lawson were wealthy Chicago residents.  But, the Lawson estate was sold to H.O. Stone company of Chicago in 1925.  The H.O. Stone company engaged Langford.  It would be interesting if we would find out that the members of the H.O. Stone family enterprizes of Chicago were members of Either or both Chicago GC or Shoreacres.  They might have gone to the best known Chicagoland architects, (Langford, among Bendelow, and Foulis Bros.) and told Langford to build something like they already were familiar with and which they identified as "Scottish Links" like Chicago GC was known to be called.  So, perhaps Langford made a concious effort to build the same familiar landforms as we see in the C.B to Raynor tradition.

The one rap I heard from a good player who saw the one weakness in the so-called variety at Lawsonia is John Vander Borght who noted that the whole course is right turns.  Indeed every dogleg there is right.  Nothing left.  

[A_Clay_Man]

What's interesting about that observation though, is one needn't play a slider to take advantage of the right turn. Players often decide to cut the corner with a draw. On #1, #8 (slight turn) and #9 really tempts the long draw.

Perhaps it's the openness, but the same cannot be said for other dogleg left holes cut out of trees.

Plus, how else do you go in a circle?

[mark chalfant]

Ed, sorry I forgot to mention Happy hollow in Omaha. It has a
nice set of greens that are engaging, if a bit restrained by Langfords standards. The front nine is excellent with several holes that rise and tumble through rollercaoster terrain.Also
a brook comes into play on 1 or 2 holes. #18 is a fine closer
with a pretty drive into a rising valley. Maybe Jeff Brauer knows  this course.Blythefield, near Grand Rapids, is also a
good routing, especially on the scenic back nine.

[Chris_Clouser]

The course that Pete Dye thought was a Raynor course is the one at Culver, IN.  I believe Bob Crosby has intimate knowledge of the place.