Torrey Pines - Ready for the Open

[Mike Benham]

With the topic showing Seminole underwater, here are some photos of Torrey Pines getting ready for the British Open.

These were taken last weekend when my sons took a break from their studies at San Diego State (and they got charged full green fees - no rater comps ).

Maybe Pete L. can fill us in on why they turned off the water at TP ...



As Kevin Reilly noted "Nice cart path ..."

[George Pazin]

Cool skyline green, anyway.

[Pete Lavallee]

Margarita Mike,

You were lucky enough to encounter the annual Kikuyu/Bermada stripping. The Kikuyu/Bermuda is shaved and aggressively de-thatched to make way for the Rye overseed; we wouldn't want all those snow birds to have to play off a brown dormant fairway at $125 a pop, now would we. The sprinklers are turned off for a week or two after the de-thatching to help the grass go dormant before the Rye seeds are spred. That of course will be followed by round the clock sprinkling to get those seeds to sprout. That process does not work very well because the City allows plays during that period. At least Barona Creek closes down for a full two weeks to complete that process; they also aerify the greens then. Their overseed seems to come in much fuller. Both Torrey North and South along with Balboa Park just don't seem to work well trying to water sprouting grass while people play over it.

[Mike Benham]

I knew the Pete the Wicked Brewer would know the scoop.

Unfortunately, it was my sons who played and they loved the firm and fast conditions.  They mentioned that the turf was easy to play off of ...

[Pete Lavallee]

There's no question that the dormant Bermuda/Kikuyu is more fun to play off. But try explaining that to the folks who run the Torrey Pines Golf Resort; gotta keep those tourists happy. The sad fact is that although the overseeding improves the appearance it does not improve playing conditions and it inhibits the return of the Bermuda/Kikuyu in the spring. In June there is absolutely none of it to be found as the morning overcast keeps these warm season grasses from coming back. If the USGA wants these grasses to be in play for the 2008 Open they will have to skip the overseeding; otherwise they'll be playing off what's left of the annual Rye, which is spent by June!

[Joe Perches]

There's no question that the dormant Bermuda/Kikuyu is more fun to play off.

Please elaborate if you can.

I think that Kikuyu is the worst golf grass I know.
Bletcherous.  Kikuyu's ugly looking too.

Kikuyu reduces golf to hitting the ball as far in the air as you can until you can find some real grass.  Chipping is not interesting.

[Pete Lavallee]

Joe,

The Bermuda/Kikuyu mix is here to stay at Torrey. The lesser of two evils would be playing of a semidormant Bermuda/Kikuyu mix, instead we get completely dormant turf with just a few wispy strands of annual rye; the ball sits down and conditions get muddy with the continual futile efforts to irrigate the rye while people are playing. Although we'de both like to see a different strain of grass as the predominant type, that opportunity was lost in the redesign.

[A_Clay_Man]

Joe- While I don't agree that KK is any worse than a poorly maintained bermuda, to answer your question, the difference between dormant and in season KK is astounding. Much more bounce.

While it's very easy to bad mouth the grass, a steady diet of the stuff, should cause the golfer to follow-thru on any delicate wedge shots.

[Joe Perches]

the difference between dormant and in season KK is astounding. Much more bounce.

So that I can agree with.  Dormant kikuyu is better to play off than active kikuyu. Some might also think perhaps that for golf dead kikuyu is even better.  I think the other parts of the statements, that thinning and rye overseeding do not improve conditions for a few months in spring are not correct though.  Summer?  The kikuyu will outgrow everthing else anyway.

Here's a link to an old article about kikuyu:

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1920s/1925/2511252.pdf

note the "mat of grass may become quite 4 inches thick" statement.

[Dan Herrmann]

Wouldn't fescue or bent be a better choice?

[Mike Benham]

Wouldn't fescue or bent be a better choice?

I believe that rye is used for the overseeding because it is relatively cheap (among other attributes).

Is there a difference in closely-mown kikuyu on the fairways vs. the nasty kikuyu rough?

[Pete Lavallee]

Dan,

I'm sure fescue or bent would be a great choice, if you live in Penn., but here in So. Cal. Bermuda and Kikuyu dominate. I know Eastlake, here in SD, tried to plant Bluegrass on their hardpan instead of importing topsoil; it failed miserably, they have converted to Bermuda. Many of Ted Robinson's courses hydo-seed with some form of Rye, and it takes years for the fairways to fill in fully. Rustic Canyon plays great with perenial Rye, but the sandy surface surely plays a part in its' success there.  

The biggest problem with Kikuyu is the tremendous amount of thatch it produces; the main reason for the unwanted cushion effect. Yearly de-thatching helps to keep the fairways lies somewhat tighter at Torrey. Iterestingly, Coronado Municipal has 100% Kikuyu, never dethatches or overseeds, and stays green all year long. The do have a cushion like effect, you'll have to dig down 2 inches or more to hit the dirt; the beginers and seniors who frequent there seem to like it.

[Dan Herrmann]

Pete,
Thanks.  I'm far from an expert on grasses, and thought that bentgrass would grow in the San Diego climate.  Oops!  

[Steve Pozaric]

Mike:

I was there just about exactly 1 yr ago (I know b/c I missed a tournament that I played in today) and your pictures capture exactly how I remember the course looking.

The nice thing about the conditions was I remember getting A LOT of ROLL.  I felt muey macho when preparing to hit my second shot after a 300 yrd drive (which was easy to do after hitting the concrete fairways and getting about a ton of roll).  

Good site, just a shame that they did not do more with it.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pete, Does Coronado still have the Cape-like carry tee over the marina on #14 or 15? (I can't remember which hole it was, but it was my favorite on the course.)

[Pete Lavallee]

Tommy,

The cape-like carry still exists on #16, in fact it's even better with the new back tee which is farther right, ensuring that your tee shot must start out over the water. Like many of the holes at Coronado, it's good, but could be much better. The hole's weakness is that it doesn't reward you for flirting with the water right, nor punish you for bailing left. Think of how good this hole would be if the green was moved to the right, hard against Glorietta Bay. I suspect it was never done because of the the walking path along side the Bay.

[Michael Kim]

i remember Torrey Pines would always be brown in september due to the fact that they try to kill off the kikuyu during my time while i was at UCSD. it was really fun to play off from because the conditions were firm and fast. it's too bad they never get the green speeds up to par at torrey pines.

pete and tommy,

i'm so glad you mentioned coronado because i always loved the to play the course. i used to drive down all the time from la jolla to play the course at its bargain price. too bad they have too many tournaments there that eats up all the tee times. it's a charming course, and you're right. it could be so much better if they shaped a few holes a little bit more better...

the 16th hole at coronado is a fun hole with the semi-carry over the marina to get to the fairway. i always thought it was somewhat intimidating that i was going to push one way right into somebody's parked boat. however, pete is right. the drive is not that tough, and i can bail as much as i want way left and still be fine. i've heard some people have even driven this green from the back tee at 365 yards...

the par 5 12th is still one of the craziest par 5's i've ever played. it is literally a horseshoe hole in shape. i bet some players think in the back of their mind of teeing off pointing way right towards the green. i would imagine it's not that far of a carry if it wasn't for the trees in the way...

[Dennis_Harwood]

Every course in Palm Desert/Palm Springs looks exactly like that-- since they are all overseeded (and most are closed for the month of OCT)  A great number of the high end SoCal course follow suit--

Attempts at overseeding with any cold weather grass other than Rye has illustrated that tons of water, in addition to rain, are required-- Since SoCal soils don't drain well the bluegrasses are not used.