Lake Seminole

[rgkeller]

Below is a link to an article about the condition of golf courses in Palm Beach and Martin Counties with a pic of Seminole.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2004/09/29/a7b_hurricanegolf_0929.html

The pic can be expended with a mouse click.

[Neil Regan]

It looks like a 1980s re-design.

[RDecker]

What the Desmond Muirhead proposed redesign looked like...

[Scott_Burroughs]

That pic above looks a lot like the pic used in all of the brochures for Island Green GC near Myrtle Beach.  Except the ocean part.

[ChipRoyce]

The water looks kinda brackish - does anyone know if any % of that water is Salty?

[JakaB]

Will courses need to be removed from the Golfweek lists much like Apache Stronghold was.....poor conditioning is poor conditioning..

[ChipRoyce]

LOL -

John K. - great observation. Funny to see if the "letter of the law" is followed in these cases.

Are any of the lists to be updated in the next 3-6 months? If so, seems like Seminole and others in the category would be affected by "course conditioning" before they get all cleaned up and ready-to-go.

[rgkeller]

The water looks kinda brackish - does anyone know if any % of that water is Salty?

I was told that some salt water did, indeed, intrude.

[Robert Thompson]

Does wrecked by a hurricane actually fall into course conditioning? It seems ridiculous. Obviously this isn't the typical shape of the courses -- this is a freak of nature. If this is taken into account in rankings, then they really won't have any value.
I've often wondered about conditioning in rankings. In Canada, courses are never in great shape after the winter and take a month or so to recover. So if you rated them in April, conditioning won't likely be very good.

But if you showed up in July, the conditions are likely very different.

Seminole is a great golf course -- and when it reopens it will still be a great golf course.

Robert

[THuckaby2]

Seminole is a great golf course -- and when it reopens it will still be a great golf course.

Robert

IF that is true, then it deserves no ranking movement.

But how does anyone know right now that this will be the case?  Isn't it possible the salt and water damage and loss of trees would be so bad it might take years to get it back to what it was, if it ever does?  I'm asking innocently and with no axe to grind.

And if it does take that long, during the time it's unplayable - or playable only under horrid conditions - does it deserve the high ranking?

I ask this only because the Apache Stronghold example weighs heavily, I think.  You had a course there that was "great" in design and concept, but that got to be pretty unplayble due to lack of and/or very spotty grass.  If a course is no fun playing due to conditions, does it deserve lofty rankings?

The game is meant to be played, not viewed.  So to me, conditions do matter.  Certainly this is ofteno beyond what an architect can control - as appears to be the case at Apache Stronghold and is certainly the case at Seminole - but unless one is rating "design" istead of "golf course", then this just has to be tough luck.

I've never been to either of these places, by the way.

TH

[Robert Thompson]

Seems to me that trees are not central to Seminole's current design and that with the money the club has, any problems will be fixed in a judicious manner.

Robert

[rgkeller]

Well, it has long been difficult to grow good turf on top of water, even when liberally fertilized with shredded currency.

[THuckaby2]

Seems to me that trees are not central to Seminole's current design and that with the money the club has, any problems will be fixed in a judicious manner.

Robert

I'd assume that as well.  But still, that damage looks pretty devastating to me.  In any case, I'm just speculating at what ought to be done if it CAN'T come back to what it was, either ever or not for a few years... Seems to me if a course can't be played, it ought not to be ranked.  Now obviously there's a grace period for this...

Oh well, it's just speculation.  Here's hoping this alll gets rendered moot very quickly.

TH

[Robert Thompson]

Gents: Not to sound repetitive, but if a single well funded member at Seminole wanted -- they could resod the entire golf course, replace all of the bunker sand. All it would cost was a day's take home for some of the chaps that play there.
I don't think anyone has to worry about it returning to shape, even with all the water on it.
I've got a friend who is a member and I'll check with him.

Robert

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I've got one word for the.... "Paspalum."  It's the wonder grass for salty environments.  At The Ocean Course, the entire No. 1 and the first 1/3 or No. 2 (as well as No. 14) fairways are Paspalum as are all the tee boxes and greens.  We're eventually going to convert the entire course to the grass a little at a time.  The ocean can wash over it and it will come back as healthy as every...  Pete Dye swears by the stuff...

[David Wigler]

Will courses need to be removed from the Golfweek lists much like Apache Stronghold was.....poor conditioning is poor conditioning..

John,

As you well know, conditioning is not a category that goes into GW's final ranking.  Apache fell to the level it probably deserves to be at (Just outside the top 100) as more people saw it to offset the "Anything Doak must be top 10" crowd. I would be shocked if a hurricane caused Seminole to drop.  To be fair though, a hurricane could cause a parkland course to drop if it ripped out all the trees and the course did not work as a links course.

[JakaB]

David,

First of all I know Seminole will be back good as new in less than a year....it is just a fact of excellence.

I understood that Apache still had the numbers to be a top 100 but was pulled as a special case because the conditioning was embarrassing and costing the magazine credibility...I could have sworn that was even said in print.

[David Wigler]

David,

First of all I know Seminole will be back good as new in less than a year....it is just a fact of excellence.

I understood that Apache still had the numbers to be a top 100 but was pulled as a special case because the conditioning was embarrassing and costing the magazine credibility...I could have sworn that was even said in print.

John,

If that is true, than I apologize and I did not know it.  I thought that the condition being embarrasing may have contriuted to the course falling from the top 100.  I would be surprised if the course qualified on numerics but was pulled unilaterally.

[THuckaby2]

Robert T.:

I understand that money will not be an issue at Seminole.  Still, if the course is too badly destroyed, well... it becomes a complete renovation project.  And as we've seen in the MANY topics here posted about such things, these can go well and not so well.  So it's not unimagineable to think that Seminole either takes a LONG time to re-do, or even worse, gets massively screwed up in the re-do.  Thus my speculation here, which is just that - idle speculation.  This really isn't about Seminole specifically as much as the principle generally.

TH

[Joel_Stewart]

Has anyone heard the condition of Medalist, Jupiter Hills, Pine Tree and/or Macarthur?

I spoke with a member of Seminole today who wasn't even fazed by the photo.  The members expect the course will be in great shape on opening day.  By the way, Seminole has never had an assesment.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You'd be amazed at what sandy soil, wind and sunshine can do in a short time span in Florida.

A creek/stream runs north-south through the property a hundred yards or so west of the 7th green, and several areas in the photos are LAKES during normal play.

Several water management agencies determine how best to control the water when there is too little or too much, and I'd imagine that they'll manage this problem like they have so many others in the past.

Florida, especially coastal Florida east of the Turnpike typically enjoys soil that drains exceptionally well, and with the wind and sun, drainage and evaporation work well to return golf courses to their pre-storm/hurricane conditions.

Tom Huckaby,

Would you identify for me what architectural features you feel were destroyed at Seminole ?

I'm curious to know why you feel they need to renovate the golf course.

[Jfaspen]

I have heard that the Coleman has been tenativly moved to the TPC at Heron bay...


i keed, i keed.

[THuckaby2]

Tom Huckaby,

Would you identify for me what architectural features you feel were destroyed at Seminole ?

I'm curious to know why you feel they need to renovate the golf course.

Patrick:

I have obviously never been to Seminole.  I just look at this picture and see an inland sea where there once was a golf course, and it's not much of a leap of logic to guess that major damage might occur there.  I absolutely do NOT feel it needs to be renovated, nor am I trying to identify any needed changes to architectural features.  I am just speculating here that if the damage is as great as that picture leads one to conjecture, then a full-scale renovation would be required.  I'm not talking about making changes to architectural features or anything like that.  I'm just talking about making the place a golf course again.

I'd be happy to hear that it's not as bad as it looks.  By all accounts Seminole is a national treasure that certainly needs no improvements.

But if it's underwater, well....

[THuckaby2]

Enough speculative bulldung.  

Does anyone have any up-to-date information?

I think it unlikely that Seminole still resembles the photograph at the top of this thread. Impressive photography, but probably old news at this point.

Oh I surely hope so!

And like I said a few posts ago, my points here are not so much about Seminole specifically as about the principle in general; that is, that if a course can't be played long-term, it doesn't deserve a high rating.

If that's not true, then why isn't Lido in the top 10?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

You have to distinguish flooding from structural damage.

How long the water remains in the flood stage will determine the playing conditions, the health of the grass.
Unfortunately, the growing season in Florida is ending with the advent of winter.

Seminole doesn't open for member play until mid-october, so they have time to fix any erosion of bunkers, etc., etc..

Joel Stewart,

The report on Pine Tree is that it opened for play yesterday.
Like most golf courses, debris clean up was a major task.
Trees were repeatedly knocked down by hurricane after hurricane, especially ficas and buffer plantings.  Some are being righted, others abandoned.

Life goes on.