Best golf in the Plains ?

[Buck Wolter]

Matt -

Here's a blurb I pulled off the internet

This scenic course is very hilly and features numerous oak trees lining its fairways. The greens are large, and there are sand bunkers guarding most holes. This club was originally founded in 1894 and was listed by the USGA as one of the first 100 clubs established in the U.S. It was also recognized by "GOLF Magazine" on its 1995 list of "The First 100 Clubs in America."

 Par Yardage Course Rating Slope
Blue 72 6437 71.4 126
White 72 6289 70.2 121
Red 72 5323 69.4 109
 
18 holes Built in 1894 , designed by Warren Dickenson

I'd love to join you but I haven't lived in Des Moines for 15 years. I learned to play at Waveland back in the late 80's and probably played the course 100 times over 2-3 years. Look me up if you get to St. Louis though.

Buck
 

[Scott_Burroughs]

Matt,

http://www.golfcourse.com/search/custom.cfm  is the easiest place to find CRs and Slopes of about 99.8% of the courses in the country.

Waveland is 6437 71.2 124 from the tips, according to the site.  Not up to your standards....

[Buck Wolter]

For as short as Waveland is there are a few ball-busters. #3 is as long and narrow of a par 5 as I've ever seen over 550 yards and about 20 yards wide. #10 is a 220 yard par 3 and 16 is a 450+ yard par 4. Also many tee shot are into hills, dog legs, etc.

One other candidate came to mind called the Hyperion Field Club. A Bendelow but looks to have a couple redeisgns. Always had a reputation for slick greens.

Hyperion Field Club (private)
7390 NW Beaver Dr
Johnston, IA 50131
(515)276-1596, fax (515)278-4714

18 holes Built in 1907 , designed by Tom Bendelow  

[Gary_K]

Doug,

How are Finkbine’s fairways filling in?  Have they performed any other changes?  I played it a few years ago and noticed they changed a few tee boxes and mounding around a few greens compared to when I graduated from the UofI in ’92  I hope to make it back to Iowa City to play Finkbine this fall and take in a football game.  Last fall when I attended the Iowa/ASU game, I knew Finkbine was being reseeded.  I was shocked when I drove out to Brown Deer (Jim Spear Design) in Coralville and saw the 9th hole and 1st hole completely torn up.  I played it a few times when it opened and on football weekend about 3 years ago.  It was not a very kind course to the average golfer, ie. a lot of forced carries and tight fairways.  Is the course being redesigned or converted into housing?  If they redo the course, are they adding the second nine?  

I ended up playing out in North Liberty (nice greens, crappy fairways) last year, I was hoping to play Pleasant Valley.  I always enjoyed that sporty track.  Any changes out PV?

I was able to play TCI a few weeks ago.  It was similar to the only other Palmer course that I’ve played (Dakota Dunes in SD).  The terrain is fairly rugged for Iowa, similar to Amana.  I don’t think it is very walkable.  Some of the green to tee distances are long and a cart struggles to get up a few of the hills (hole #8 especially).  I didn’t care for the back-to-back par threes 15 & 16.  The 16th seems forced in.  It didn’t seem to fit the previous 15 holes.  I don’t know how the spectators are going to fair when they host the Champions Tour event next year.  The last three holes are setup for spectator viewing and that’s about it.  I was surprised and glad to see the 9th and 10th holes were quite a distance away from the clubhouse.  They have a little half-way house and off to #10.  I would recommend anyone to give it a go.  Ron Whitten gave TCI a fairly good review:

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/tournamentclub.html

Thanks for any info about the Iowa City area courses.

Gary K.

[Brad Swanson]

Matt,
   I'd love to hear your thoughts on Wakonda if you managed to play there.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Doug Siebert]

GaryK,

The new fairways at Finkbine are awesome -- on opening day in May, they were the best fairways I've ever seen anywhere in my life.  Not having any divots probably had a lot to do with that though, now they look like typical bent grass fairways that are very nice except for all the divots they inevitably get.  But no bare spots or anything like that, and the new greens and tees are very nice as well.  They had redone many of the greensites as you noted, added/removed a few fairway bunkers and added new back tees since '92.  Just added a new back tee on #3 last fall as a matter of fact, it plays about 7050 or so and there really isn't much room for further stretching.  Lots of new trees, there are very few places to miss where you won't end up with tree trouble now.

Brown Deer was sold for $1 to the city by the developer (Poots) since it was losing $200K/year.  They spent $7 million building a second nine, redoing the front nine and building a large new clubhouse.  Its not quite as brutal as it was.  It had already been softened a bit from when it first opened, they had made the 2nd hole (par 5 over water) into a par 4, widened that goofy stretch of 8 yard wide fairway and the par 5 6th and shortened the 7th from a 465 yard uphill par 4 to more like 420 (I didn't like that change, it was the only really long hole on the course)  You'd still recognize half the holes from before but it isn't as nasty towards mistakes as it used to be.  The back nine is much more wide open, not so many trees, but a fair amount of water.

Pleasant Valley is the same, nothing has changed there other than the trees growing up some -- but a lot of the mature trees including the monster in the middle of the fairway on the par 5 11th were downed in a big windstorm in '98 when 120+ mph straightline winds came through courtesy of a "derecho".  All the telephone poles on the road out to the course were snapped exactly halfway up, it was something to see!

One new course worth seeing in the area is Saddleback Ridge, see my other postings in this thread for more info on it.

[Eric_Dorsey]

Waveland, new Arnie course ??  

Good God, Waveland is as old as dirt, dripping with history, but just an OK course - #3 is total bogus, and it's not in the best of shape usually.

If your going to Iowa - there are 3, possible 4 courses that are a must.

4)  Des Moines - all 36.  It doesn't look like Dye, the green contours are awesome.  Lots of visual tricks here from 200 out.

3)  Davenport CC.   Out of the way, but I assure you, it's worth it.  CH Allison design I believe.

2)  Wakonda Club.  Incredibly hard and historic - it's awesome.  Hardest course in the state.

1)  Cedar Rapids CC.  Donald Ross - the front-9 is as good as it gets in Iowa.  great and subtle elevations, wonderful greens, maybe the most beautiful, old clubhouse in the midwest with the exception of Medinah.

honarable mention:  Glen Oaks, Veenker (Maxwell design), Finkbine (ok-Vennker is better), Harvester (I loved it-beautiful), Hyperion (some fun holes-#1,#8, VERY fast greens)

Grew up in Iowa playing High School (4A) golf and college golf - I know all these courses well.  Worked @ DMGCC, CRCC, and Wakonda as waiter in college - probably played each 50 times.  
pm me and tell me how what you decided to play,

good luck!  

[Brad Swanson]

Eric,
   Did you ever run into the Ottumwa Bulldog juggernaut (4A '87 state champs ) during your high school golf days?

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Buck Wolter]

Eric-
I think you're the first person I've seen put CRCC ahead of Wakonda, I get there fairly often so I might have to see what I can do to play that.

Maybe I'm too sentimental about Waveland but architecturally it's much more interesting to me than Glen Oaks. I'd go hole by hole but I frankly don't remember much about Glen Oaks. Put the conditioning aside and the fact that it gets more play than probably any 2 other courses in the state ( I played most of my golf there before they even put centerline irrigation in the fairways) --it's a great routing that gets everything out of the property, obviously done when there was no choice but to use a minimalist design. It's a shame that the City doesn't put back 1/10th of what they get from it.


Buck

[Eric_Dorsey]

Eric-
I think you're the first person I've seen put CRCC ahead of Wakonda, I get there fairly often so I might have to see what I can do to play that.

Wakonda is awesome, I won't deny that.  Maybe I'm biased as I worked @ CRCC longer and played it more times.  Let me give you 3 reasons why I think CRCC is more enjoyable to play.

1)  CRCC as I said earlier, has the best 9 in the state I believe hands-down.  The front-9 is all original Donald Ross; it has it all - crowned greens that roll off, wonderful bunkers, great elevation changes on your approaches (#1 & #2 come to mind), and has great lines off the tee where you have to work the ball.

2)  CRCC has great finishing holes in #9, and #18.  Wakonda has very weak finishing holes in #9, and ESPECIALLY #18, which is driveable by 5-handicaps and less!    It is such a letdown to a great course.  I do love the first-4 @ Wakonda though - they are awesomely hard and beautiful to look at.

3)  Wakonda is so brutally hard for the average player, I never broke 80 from the tips there, and I'm a 4!  It can almost take away from the joy of playing there IMO.

4)  honorable mention - the clubhouse @ CRCC is worth a trip alone - it's awesome!  WGC clubhouse is awful, and the food is terrible.  CRCC had one the best chef's in the nation working there during my college days (92'-94').  Everything about CRCC was absolutely 5-star.  I've worked @ Colonial, Brook Hollow, Belle Meade, Des Moines golf, Glen Oaks, and I can promise you, NO ONE came to close to the quality of service and food as CRCC did

[Matt_Ward]

Since the discussion has turned to Iowa golf I need to say that I did play only two (2) courses on my recent trek into the northern plains -- The Tournament Club of Iowa and The Harvester -- both in the greater Des Moines area.

TCI is really a mixed bag. There are holes of quality on the layout but you also have some odd situations (the routing of holes #14 trhru #16) is really jammed in a section of the course and frankly looks out of place for me.

There are rather plain jane greens shapes on a number of holes and you have some pro forma holes like the drop-shot par-3 8th. Sometimes I wonder if the Palmer group understands that green contours are central to the interest in playing a course. A number of them at TCI are big and basically flat saucers with flanking bunkers that are there for cosmetics but little strategic consequence.

The routing of the starting holes on the back nine are quite good. Holes #10 through #13 are well done as you weave through a series of hills and gullies. The par-4 12th is really well done as it calls for a slight draw off the tee to the end of a rise that falls below to vast canyon with the green parked on the other end.

What makes me wonder about TCI is that a number of holes on the front have to work all the way around a massive wetlands. The best hole of the bunch on that side for me is the mid-length dog-leg par-4 7th. It has a cape like quality and it's one of the better looking and strategic holes you play when there.

For me TCI was basically half full and half empty. It does have its moments but at the end of the day I was hoping for much more.

The Harvester is a Keith Foster design and it is rated #1 by GolfWeek in the State of Iowa among public courses. I really enjoyed the course a good bit more than TCI. At TH you have a muscular sprawling layout that is on some of the best land you encounter in all of the state. It is rolling throughout and the playing conditions (greens) were like a pool table. The only issue is that the course was a tad too soft for my tastes and was more in line with being verdant green. A little more speed on the fairways would add to the strategic implications IMHO.

The course offers a range of holes and the closing stretch from #15 thru #18 is simply first rate. The uphill 15th hole plays 650 yards and is dynamic hole. You then march back down the same hole with a slight turn to the left -- it's a 480-yard par-4. The 17th is a delicious par-3 that uses a portion of a pond / lake that protects the entire right side. When the pin is all the way back right (it was for me) you need brass ones to fly it all the way back.

The ending hole is a dog-leg right par-5 that wraps itself all the way around the same lake / pond. You can gamble with the tee shot but it had better be well executed. The hole plays about 565 yards and can be reached in two with well played efforts.

Overall, The Harvester is a cut above all of the public courses I played in the nothern plains with the lone exception being Red Rock in Rapid City, SD which I thoroughly enjoyed as well.

Be curious to know what those who live in Iowa think of these two courses and if other layouts are even a cut above The Harvester?

[Eric_Dorsey]

Matt, I whole-heartedly agree with you on The Harvester.  Being a little soggy, seemingly from overwatering, it was an awesome-looking course.  I loved the par-3's and it had some great short par-4's with the great ending you talked about.  There were very few bad holes IMO - I loved it and can't wait to play it again.

On the other hand, I've played a few Palmer courses (Fossil Creek in FW, TX) being one of them, and I couldn't stand them.  The TCI looked like a bunch holes built to the extreme to draw in the Allianze Champions event.  It looked very severe, and I played Waveland instead, and loved it as always     Frankly, I didn't even consider playing the TCI.

Glad you got to The Harvester though, keith Foster is one of my favorites right now.  He has 2 other designs I've played - the Tennessean and Texas Star, both which I loved also.

glad you enjoyed the pork capital of the world.  

[Doug Siebert]

This has been a very wet and cool summer in Iowa....normally by late June things are taking on a deciding brownish tinge if they aren't being watered.  But my damn lawn has been going like gangbusters all year, I've already easily broken my record for the number of mowings in a year and its still only August.  So I wouldn't necessarily fault the Harvester for its lack of fast and firm conditions.  It wasn't too bad when I was there.

You are right about that 17th with the back right pin position.  It wasn't there when I played it but I remember thinking that it would be a very challenging pin, especially on a windy day.  So did you put on your brass ones and challenge it?  How did it turn out?

[Jay Carstens]

I'd add that this June/July was the coolest in Nebraska since 1951, and August has been much the same with only a few days in the 90's.  Very good golfing conditions in our area this year.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

I hit a full 8-iron to get to the back pin placement but I knew as soon as pulled the trigger that the slightest push would have been Bobby Darin "splish splash" territory.

You know one other plus of the hole is that there are two separate tee boxes of equal distance that can be used. The one closer to the lake is likely a tad easier because you can keep the lake out away from you line of attack. The one higher on the hill requires a frontal assault with the green playing not as wide as the other angle.

I really enjoyed the closing hole -- I was told by the head pro that a few people have driven the green from the white tee! I think the drive on the hole is simply delicious. You have to decide how ballsy you want to be. I smoke one over the left corner of the lake and hit 6-iron hole high in two. The ending four holes are certainly dynamic and provide a wealth of possibilities.

I hear what you're saying about the cool and wet times in Iowa this summer but generally the idea of really having a fast and firm course is still an issue for many courses. They are still seduced by the "green is good" mentality because few owners really "get it" on what "fast and firm" conditions are about.

If there is one weakness at The Harvester -- I didn't like thge cut-off of the fairway on #9 and all the long par-4's play out from the southerly direction -- #9 and #10 are two examples -- ditto the 1st hole -- which is very underrated as is the 2nd.

The only other area I thought became a bit weak was the 11th through 14th holes. They are decent but a clear notch below what you find elsewhere IMHO.

Eric D:

I only wish I had additional time to play other courses in the Des Moines area. Next time I will.

TCI simply fails to make a consistent case and it falls back on the scripted formulaic green designs that I wince at when playing. There are a number of good holes at the course -- I did like the last two but after you face the ho-hum music of holes 14-16 you really only get back to square one IMHO.

Have to say this AP design certainly knows how to create the prototypical CCFAD -- sadly, they also fail to include a consistent and compelling architectural reason for me to return there.

Eric -- two other Foster designs worth playing include The Quarry in San Antonio and SunRidge Canyon just outside of Scottsdale. However, both are clearly a notch below what you find at The Harvester IMHO.

Gents:

Can someone rate for me the best public courses they see in Iowa. It would help me for a return visit next summer if time permits. Thanks ...

[Eric_Dorsey]

just saw your last post Matt, sorry so late.    


I think you played it - The Harvester.  My personal fav is Veenker Memorial 30 min north of Des Moines in Ames.  It's ISU's home course, or was, and is an old Perry Maxwell course that is always in great shape.  A round there in twilight with the fall colors coming on is one of my fondest memories on a course.  EXTREMELY tight with very small greens.  I have a bunch of ok pics I took last year, but no website to post them on - sorry.  I'll send them to you if you want.

Waveland is good too, and so is Finkbine in Iowa City.