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Coral_Ridge

Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« on: February 13, 2002, 03:23:49 PM »
There is frequent discussion of the well known golf course architects, but what of others.  Others that may have been downright good.  

I want to ask about one who I have come across in my readings, but feel free to bring up other "lesser known" architects to discuss.

We have a few regulars here from the Chicago area where there are many very good golf courses.  How good were designs from Herbert Tweedie?  He designed Bryn Mawr, Midlothian, and Flossmoor among others.

Edited for spelling of Tweedie.  I must move up from 1.5 to 2 on my reading glasses. :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

SPDB

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Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2002, 03:28:44 PM »
i've never seen anything, but I thought it was Herbert Tweedie (as opposed to Tweedle).

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2002, 03:43:31 PM »
We once redesigned Pioneer Park Golf Course in Lincoln, Nebraska, which was credited to a William H. Tucker in 1932.

Promotional material of the day lists him as a leading architect.  Whitten profiles him, and mentions connections to Wimbedon, Forest Hills Tennis Center, Yankee Stadium, for turfing, Chevy Chase in Md. and an early association as pro at the NY St. Andrews for clubmaking, and with Willie Dunn in golf construction in Europe.

The university of New Mexico course seems to be his biggest course, done near retirement.  He had the flurry of activity around Lincoln , also designing Hillcrest and CC of Lincoln 1923-25.

Based on Whitten's list, he had an geographically diverse career, with courses in MD, CO, NB, NJ, NM, NY, VT, and Washington State.  His sone had more in AZ, CA and NM.  He is said to have designed over 120 courses, but Whittens list is not that extensive.

The Pioneer Course had a neat routing, which we kept intact, but was nothing special in green and tee features, yet pleasant.  Lincoln CC was an early client of Pete Dye, who did a few greens there, and John LaFoy rebuilt all of them in the late 80's.  Also, a  good routing on tight property, but typical 20's greens.

One note of interest on the Pioneer Park Project - I have a Gutta or Bramble ball that was dug up during construction.  I believe these were last made in 1900, meaning the player who lost that ball got at least 32 good years out the ball!  He probably was still upset at losing a perfectly good ball! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2002, 03:59:48 PM »
Coral Ridge,
       Herbert Tweedie ties in with the "oldest courses" thread in that himself and other members of the original Chicago GC at Belmont stayed behind when the club moved to the Wheaton, Il. site. Tweedie would build a new course at the Belmont site. The Architects of Golf list Tweedie as a friend of C.B. Macdonald, but probably not much of an influence since C.B. had only dabbled in design by that stage and had yet to formulate his ideal links concept for NGLA. Tweedie did not come over to the USA from England seeking a job as professional (a path of many early designers), but remained an amateur and ran a Spalding sporting goods store in Chicago.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick Hitt

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Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2002, 04:21:34 PM »
We had the Foulis brothers prowling around Chicago and the Midwest quite a long time ago.
One of my favorites for sentimental reason is Joe Roseman. He designed and owned a 36 hole club called Pickwick Golf Club in Glenview, IL. He also owned and built a lit par 3 course in nearby Wilmette. He held patents for hollow roller gang mowers that he manufactured and sold from a factory connected to his courses. His Westmoreland is now an Art Hills course over his routing. !8 of Pickwick was claimed by the US Navy while the other 18 was plowed under. What a fun course to play when the airshow was in town. The final 18 - which was called NAS Glenview then Station Links when the base was shut down - was plowed under for the creation of THE GLEN  >:( :-X
Joe Roseman also created more courses around Chicago including Adam Clayman's favorite - Waveland 'er Sydney Marovich, the 9 hole Pebble Beach of Chicago - or is it the Harbortown of Chicago with the Montrose harbor "lighthouses" ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

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Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2002, 04:53:19 PM »
Possibly one of the most prolific and unrecognised (by his own doing in not cooperating with submitting a list of his work to C&W) is Art Johnson, of Madison and Lake Wisconsin, WI.  I am not stating Art is in the league with classic designers, but he does functional, muni style (easy to maintain) and some creativity in routing and greensites.  I'm only guessing, but I think he has done around 30 courses.  He used to live in my neighborhood, and was the landcape architect for the city I was a police officer in.  He got me to join GCSAA and I attended my first convetion and took some design classes upon his making me aware of the organization and seminars.  He scoffed at both Rulewich and Fazio when they presented their dog and pony shows.  I didn't know enough at the time to critique his critique of those fellows.  Art is an independent, wry and fun character; I will say no more...  ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ran Morrissett

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Eric Apperly - 1930s
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2002, 07:10:27 AM »
The Australian architect Eric Apperly deserves a lot of credit for the two finest courses in New South Wales, Australia - Newcastle Golf Club and  New South Wales GC.

I wish more was known about him. I don't know if he ever left Australia but if so, I wish he could have got his mitts on a few holes at Royal Birkdale as he liked to go up and over sand dunes as opposed to just having them frame holes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2002, 07:19:55 AM »
I would add AV McCann, the Mitchell brothers, the Gordons, Herbert Strong, as good architects that get little notice.
All of these have been mentioned, but very little. I have played at course desgned by all these architects and came away very impressed with there work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Cirba

Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2002, 06:45:29 PM »
I've played over 20 courses by William and David Gordon, who were from the Philadelphia area and rather prolific in the 50s and 60s.  

Ian...what course of theirs did you play and were impressed with?  BTW, last I heard, David is still alive, in his 80s, and enjoying retirement.

Another little known fact is that he is the guy who dug up the lost Ross papers that had been passed to his dad (probably by JB McGovern) in his barn.  Those papers later became "Golf Has Never Failed Me", as edited by Ron Whitten.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2002, 07:03:36 PM »
Red Lawrence is known for Desert Forest, but he did quite a few courses in the Southwest in the 50's and 60's. Does anyone have a list of his courses or a bio? I've done a simple internet search and came up empty. Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Derek_L

Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2002, 07:33:30 PM »
You know here in Minnesota we have some pretty talented artists!!!  Of course Fazio has been here, as well as Graham Marsh, Jeff Brauer, RTG, Reese Jones, Cornish, Ross, Tillie, Raynor, etc. The list could go on and on, but what about the local guys, maybe John Conley or some of the other Minnesotans can attest to this.  Joel Goldstrand has been leaving his mark all over the region, the likes of Garrett Gill and Paul Miller, and also Don Herfert, Kevin Nordby and others as well. It seems that I read an article that placed Goldstrand on the same level as Pete Dye and Arnold Plamer, both leaving there mark here. Oh yeah Fought and lehman and also Nicholas, but what about these local guys!!!  Langford wasn't here I don't beleive, but her left his mark in Wisconsin and the upper peninsula of Michigan.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2002, 07:36:15 PM »
Thanx Patrick - I always will have the fondest of memories of waveovitz in da rain. Great info on Roseman. What did Foulis do?. Where was the lit par three in Wilmette? I remember the one out towards the airport. Now that was dangerous.
It seems as though you've made it back to the willow hill south course. Is your emoticon representative of the architecture. I do have a friend who said he had a great time for less than two honjge (w/ caddie). Felt as though he was on vacation. Lives in Glenview. Knows boo about gca. What's the skinny?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2002, 01:40:30 AM »
Ran:

Great of you to mention Eric Apperly. Wow, what two great courses to be associated with, plus he did quite a bit up the NSW bush as well.

Dr. Mackenzie came in and did his thing at NSW, but nevertheless, Apperly did plenty well before.

Apperly could really play golf: 1920 Australian Amateur champion and 4-5 NSW State titles.

Not that well known is that he designed the Lakes Golf Club, Sydney, well before Von Hagge came to the party. And he designed  Avondale Golf Club as well.

Apperly must have been a real talent; apparently he was a qualified architect and also designed clubhouses all over the State. I once heard that he designed the clubhouse at the Lakes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2002, 07:31:50 PM »
Mike,

Elm Ridge (north and south) in Montreal. Private Jewish club. What impressed me was the elevated greens, they have excellent contouring and all the (original) greens had no mounding in behind. The bunkering has some spectacular bays and capes (where it is still intact, much is gone). I found the routing solid and the architecture very enjoyable. The fairway widths and strategies made for a very playable layout; whereas the raised greens, yardage and deep bunkers really test a strong player. The last thing that impressed me was there was lots of teeing area for all levels (only course in 100+ that was not in need of additional teeing surface.

I personally think the North in particular is better than the blue at Royal Montreal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JayC

Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2002, 08:31:30 AM »
Mr. Brauer,
Thanks for your kind words concerning our Pioneer Park course.
Tucker's strengths do seem to be in routing, as it has served us well for over 70 years.    
While its also true that Tucker had a flurry of activity in Lincoln back then, you've also contributed greatly with Highlands, and nearby Woodland Hills (a beautiful course) in Eagle.  
Sincerely,
Jay Carstens
Assistant Professional
Pioneers GC

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Eric Apperly

Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2004, 09:45:32 PM »
Ran:

Great of you to mention Eric Apperly. Wow, what two great courses to be associated with, plus he did quite a bit up the NSW bush as well.

Dr. Mackenzie came in and did his thing at NSW, but nevertheless, Apperly did plenty well before.

Apperly could really play golf: 1920 Australian Amateur champion and 4-5 NSW State titles.

Not that well known is that he designed the Lakes Golf Club, Sydney, well before Von Hagge came to the party. And he designed  Avondale Golf Club as well.

Apperly must have been a real talent; apparently he was a qualified architect and also designed clubhouses all over the State. I once heard that he designed the clubhouse at the Lakes.

Just doing some research here and found reference to Eric Apperly. Eric was my grandfather but unfortunately he died before I had the chance to meet him.

The more I research about Eric, the more interesting information I find. He did design a bunch of courses and was a prominent member at Manly GC in Sydney. I have a whole stack of medal spoons that he won back in the 1920's and 30's. Pretty average scores in the low 70's!!! 80 years on and I still can't score like that!

I also have the 1920 Australian Amateur Championship trophy sitting in my office at home. Interesting story about it. My father wasn't a big golf fan (I think the notoriety of his father scared him away) and we had this 'urn' that sat on a sideboard full of flowers. The significance of this piece was never really passed onto me or my brothers, and it was only after I got seriously into golf that I took a closer look.

It now takes pride of place at home.

I also have some original framed drawings of the Manly GC clubhouse which Eric Apperly also designed.


Andrew Summerell

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Re:Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2004, 08:23:22 AM »
It's great to see Eric Apperly's name mentioned as all his work that I have experienced is excellent.

This may be bold, I have always believed that NSWGC is one course where MacKenzie's routing has been improved on. If you get a chance to look at the 75th anniversary from NSWGC you see MacKenzie's original routing & the changes Apperly made. I believe they were changes for the better.

I never got to see the old Lakes course, but from what I hear it was a better course than the Von Hagge/Devlin version we have now.

Clay Huestis

Re: Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2004, 10:55:24 AM »
Red Lawrence is known for Desert Forest, but he did quite a few courses in the Southwest in the 50's and 60's. Does anyone have a list of his courses or a bio? I've done a simple internet search and came up empty. Thanks.

It's not a complete list, but I know of these courses Red Lawrence designed:

Kino Springs - Nogales, AZ
Tubac Golf Resort - Tubac, AZ (where they filmed Tin Cup)
Wigwam Resort (Red Course) - Litchfield Park, AZ

tlavin

Re:Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2004, 11:12:27 AM »


We have a few regulars here from the Chicago area where there are many very good golf courses.  How good were designs from Herbert Tweedie?  He designed Bryn Mawr, Midlothian, and Flossmoor among others.



Midlothian opened in 1898.  It has been reworked significantly over the years, but there are a solid dozen holes that have a distinctly old-time feel to them.  It is what I would call a "sporty" layout with terrific, terrifying, well-sloped push-up greens.  Definitely worth a visit.

Flossmoor officially opened the following year, although there are some records that indicate that it may have opened in 1898 under the name Homewood Country Club.  Flossmoor has been lengthened over the years and the third and eighth holes have been significantly altered.  The golf course has two remarkably different nines.  The front is relatively flat, with a ditch that comes in play on the third hole and a couple ponds that flank the eighth green.  The back nine is hilly, with Butterfield Creek (the same creek that meanders through both courses at Olympia Fields, just to the south and west) coming into play on a number of holes.  The place reeks of history and still has the look of a classic course from the 1920's.  It's definitely worth a visit, if you're coming to Chicago.

Bryn Mawr is a short, well-conditioned golf course on a small plot of land.  I've only played there a couple times, but I don't recall anything notable about the layout.

tlavin

Re:Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2004, 11:13:53 AM »
Re: Flossmoor, I neglected to mention that the par-3 seventh hole was rebuilt in rather dramatic fashion a couple years ago and the green on the 18th was rebuilt to make it playable last fall.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2004, 11:31:12 AM »
In a similar thread some time ago I think there was some agreement that Eddie Hackett had done some fine work in Ireland, often on a very limited budget.  Someone mentioned in a post the other day that Sandy Herd was probably worthy of serious recognition.  I've personal experience of only one Javier Arana course in Spain (El Saler, some years ago when it was in good condition) but he's often spoken of as a hidden gem, as it were.  And what does anyone think of the work of the prolific German von Limburger?  

Clay Huestis

Re:Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2004, 11:44:25 AM »
Mark,

Arana has done much of the best work in Spain (where there isn't really a lot to celebrate on the whole).  Apart from El Saler, which is his masterpiece, I have played El Prat in Barcelona, which was bulldozered under last year to make way for a new runway at the airport, and Casa de Campo in Madrid.  While neither one is spectacular, both are good solid efforts with interesting greens and stand in stark contrast to the artificial look and feel of Spanish resort courses.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Lesser Known Architects of the 20th Century
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2004, 11:48:41 AM »
Clay,  Good to hear that, and sorry to learn of the fate of El Prat - I only saw it from the air flying into or out of Barcelona.