The Frog

[A.G._Crockett]

I played today at a T. Fazio course outside Atlanta called The Frog (at the Georgian Resort), now about 5 yrs. old.  I must say that it is just a terrific track in every respect, and by far my favorite of the Fazio courses I've been able to play.  (Coincidentally, I'm playing at the Capital City Club on Thursday, where the AMEX Championship will be held this fall.  I'll be curious to make the comparison.)

I was unable to find any past discussion of The Frog on GCA using the search engine.  Assuming that there has been none, is there anyone out there who has played the course, and if so, what are your thoughts?

For what it is worth, I thought the par 3's, which range from 170 to 223, were especially good, though there really wasn't a hole on the course that I didn't like.  The greens were large, though not the monsters that I've seen at White Columns here in Atlanta, and the bunkering seem to frame landing areas and greens beautifully.

If any of you are travelling through Atlanta, the course is out I-20 toward Birmingham, about 30 min. from the airport, and would make a great 36-hole double with Mike Young's Wolf Creek course, which is only about 10 min. from Hartsfield.

[Top100Guru]

This course is not near the caliber you speak of.....played in the GA Mid-AM there last year and it was awful....many blind shots and goofy holes, especially a couple of the par 5's.....one of the worst tournament courses I have ever played in.....there was a "Plastic Ring" embedded in the ground separating the green from the collar that was exposed by a 1/4 inch and I saw many players balls strike this irregularity and bounce 40 yards over the green in some instances...Marriott had originally planned a 36 hole course here and the develpoment has been close to going under twice....certainly much, much better alternatives for anyone coming to the Atlanta area.....sorry kid...you def got this one wrong.....not one of Fazio's better courses.....resort status at best!!!!

Sorry!!!!

[Brock Peyer]

I played the Frog about three years ago and enjoyed it quite a bit.  I played it in March and it was in pretty good condition, the greens were in very good shape.  I have been meaning to get out there again, I liked it but it has been so long that I don't remember the specifics. They seem to have some good rates at the Frog (I still haven't figured out the name, I know that I don't like it).
 
A.G., I think that I want your schedule.  I am looking forward to going to that tournament later in the year.  I have a friend who is a member there but he doesn't play much golf.

[A.G._Crockett]

Top100Guru,
Wow!  We played different courses!  I don't remember a single blind tee shot or a single "goofy" hole.  #1 has a potentially blind landing area if you hang it out to the right, but that's a mistake by the player, I think.  Only once did I not see my tee ball land, and that was due to a pull over a left-side fairway bunker.  My only criticism of a par 5 was on #18.  If the hole was slightly shorter, there would be a great risk/reward 2nd shot, but as it is, I would imagine it is a layup for just about everybody.  Saw the plastic rings, which didn't protrude at all, and had not one iota of effect on play in our foursome.  Can't really imagine a 40 yd. bounce off one in any case, and haven't seen such bounces at other courses with the rings installed.

I had not gone to the Frog before because I'm not a big fan of Fazio courses, and assumed (wrongly) that it wouldn't be worth the drive.  What I found was exactly what I had been told by a number of quality golfers;  a fine layout, reasonably priced, very walkable, and in terrific condition.  In fact, you are the first person that I have heard negative comments from about the course.  I'll ask around for others.

Redanman
There was one beverage cart, and the driver was a rather matronly lady who was very, very unobtrusive in every respect.  Did I miss something?

[Robert Kimball]

It has been a while since my last visit. But I remember having a very nice round at the Frog.

I believe that it was originally (might still be) under the same financial "umbrella" as the Grand Cypress courses in Orlando, and they have pumped some money into the conditioning.

I am not one to really judge an architect out-of-hand because of the name, but I think this Fazio was much better than White Columns (which is pretty overpriced, IMO).  Hey, golf in the Atlanta area is going to have its ups and downs.  Unless you belong to a nice club, be ready to shell out some big bucks for sometimes average results.

Also, being the traditionalist that I am, I would much prefer playing the "old" Capital City Club in Brookhaven. THAT would be good. . .

[Mike_Cirba]

What's a "plastic ring" and what's it doing on a golf course?

I know Fazio has been faulted in the past for having such an artificial look at times, but isn't this a bit over the top?  

Seriously, what the hell are you guys talking about??

[Mike Leveille]

Mike:

The plastic ring around greens is somewhat common in the South.  It literally is a plastic ring that circles the green or the fringe in order to prevent the creeping bermuda grass from encroaching on the bent grass putting surface.  Done properly, the ring is placed in the ground and is flush with or slightly below the surface, and not a factor on shots.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike;

Thanks for the education.  Frankly, I'm not a big fan of bent grass in the south, because it seems to me that all too often it needs to be kept VERY wet just to keep it alive.   I do understand that some of the newer breeds are more heat-tolerant, however.  

Couldn't they just hire a Doberman?  

[Top100Guru]

Crockett:

Seriously Chief.....when the GA State Mid-Am was played there in the spring of 2002.....the plastic ring around the greens stuck out of the ground (not even close to flush) on more than 6 or 7 holes.....we (all of us competitors) complained so much that they probably came in and top dressed around these areas bringing the level of the bermuda up to the top of the rings.....as far as blind shots are concerned....you can not see your ball land on #2 (unless they changed or added a tee) or of course unless you top your tee shot.....#13 is tough to see where the ball lands as well......also, # 4 in my opinion, is a very goofy par 5, I did think the par 3's were pretty good but I didn't love the course.....for the $$$, there are better and closer places to play in and around Atlanta...that is all I am saying....I am a Fazio fan and one of the private clubs I belong to is a Fazio design....I have seen much better work from him...believe me....I guess I was just so disappointed in the Mid-Am at how the course was set up and the condition of the greens at the time was marginal at best....Sorry if we do not agree, but then again, that what we are here for....

Ciao!

[Top100Guru]

Crockett:

Seriously Chief.....when the GA State Mid-Am was played there in the spring of 2002.....the plastic ring around the greens stuck out of the ground (not even close to flush) on more than 6 or 7 holes.....we (all of us competitors) complained so much that they probably came in and top dressed around these areas bringing the level of the bermuda up to the top of the rings.....as far as blind shots are concerned....you can not see your ball land on #2 (unless they changed or added a tee) or of course unless you top your tee shot.....#13 is tough to see where the ball lands as well......also, # 4 in my opinion, is a very goofy par 5, I did think the par 3's were pretty good but I didn't love the course.....for the $$$, there are better and closer places to play in and around Atlanta...that is all I am saying....I am a Fazio fan and one of the private clubs I belong to is a Fazio design....I have seen much better work from him...believe me....I guess I was just so disappointed in the Mid-Am at how the course was set up and the condition of the greens at the time was marginal at best....Sorry if we do not agree, but then again, that what we are here for....

Ciao

[les_claytor]

Top 100,

Interesting comments on "The Frog."  I know most of the people involved with the design and construction, and have played it several times.  I think it's a good course, but that's besides the point.

What interests me is your comment concerning visibility of the ball landing in the fairway.  That's one of the biggest comments we get from TOUR players, is that they want to see the ball land, and that there is no excuse for new courses because with the machinery at our disposal, there is no excuse for blindness.  

I will admit, creating good visibility of greens and landing areas most often creates a better product.  However, sometimes the combination of filling tees and cutting foreground areas to achieve this means can create artificial looking designs.  

Question: do we accept blindness or semi-blindness more readilly on "classic" courses? Is creating visiblity at all expenses contrary to "minimal" or natural design.  A lot of this goes back to routing, and grading design, but it is a interesting topic that impacts modern designs to a great extent.

"Is there mystery in things unseen?"

[BCrosby]

I would think that what TOUR players want is a pretty decent contra-indicator for good architecture.  

Bob

[Mike_Sweeney]

Top 100,

 That's one of the biggest comments we get from TOUR players, is that they want to see the ball land, and that there is no excuse for new courses because with the machinery at our disposal, there is no excuse for blindness.  

Les,

Not sure if you have first hand information on Tiger, but I would be curious of Tiger's views on blindness. His ability to think around a course and his ability to visualize shots would seem to give him yet another advantage over his competitors when they face a blind shot.

[A.G._Crockett]

I am not a fan of blind tee shots, nor am I generally a fan of Fazio courses.  However, in the northwestern corner of GA, much like in Scotland, it just isn't realistic to think that blind shots can be avoided (even if you accept the premise that they are "bad").  If you start and end at the clubhouse, and elevation changes by X feet during the round, there MUST be as much uphill as down.  Les Claytor said it exactly right when he wrote that to get rid of all blind or semi-blind shots in that sort of terrain would be artificial in the extreme.

In fairness to Fazio and the Frog (where that name came from, no one seems to really know), the blind shots on the course are at a minimum, given the terrain.  The ones that ARE there are not particularly mysterious as to what the line ought to be.  The possible exception to this would be the first hole, in which a shot down the center tends to end up in the right rough, leaving a blind shot to the green.  (BTW, the starter told us this would happen!)  #1 is also the #1 handicap hole on the golf course, though.  All in all, I didn't get the cookie cutter/jumbo golf feeling that I've gotten at some other Fazio courses, and there were an unusually large number of holes that my partner and I looked back at on the green and really, really appreciated how well done the hole was.

Shivas, I tend to agree that some serendipity in where the ball ends up is one of the mystical parts of golf that separates it from the lesser games that we play.  It's like anything else in life; all things in moderation!

[Keith Williams]

I believe it is called The Frog because Herman Vonhof, owner
of Grand Cypress Development collects frogs and loves the
amphibians.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

The Frog.

The Green Monkey.

Where do they come-up with these names??? (Sorry Keith, I did read your post describing the Frog)

As for blindness.......................

Blindness from the tee is obviously not a good thing more then once or twice in a round, and if you really wanted to dig deep, you can label holes 2-7 on the Old course as being about as blind as you canget. Throw in #17 in there while your at it. Those holes all work out fine for me, but I do understand what you are talking about to a huge degree.

Damian "666" Pascuzzo (Sorry, for the slur, but it has ALWAYS been done in the most joking of manners. ALWAYS!) uses blindness on the golf course more then most.

I hear Yale Golf Club architecture afficianado Roger Rulewich also enjoys spreading it around his courses.  I myself, favor a unique partial blindess with an occasional totally blind tee that has a much safer route that is visual. While I type this, the words VARIETY are ringing through my head, and I have to tell you, more then blindess, its a GREAT thing.

Could this be one of the problems why Mr. Fazio recieves many negative reviews from us afficianados, on his style of architecture? That there really isn't an variety at all, just lots of eye candy, framed in a wonderful box?

Kiss the Frog and find out.......

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I think the official full name is The Frog Course at The Georgian Resort.  I believe I was told that the name "The Frog" for this first course planned came from the fact that the routing when looked at on the map roughly looked like the outline of a frog and thus the name was born.  They origianally had a different name in mind for the two courses, and I am not sure what the name for the second course will be.  If it is ever built at all.

A.G.

I also enjoyed very much my one round at the Frog (that was shortly after it opened).  I do not remember any inordinate ammount of blind shots if any, and recall the Par 3's being good as well although it has been so long I cannot remember them specifically.

I have talked to many Atlantians and never heard anything bad about The Frog.  I have actually been thinking about it trying to get out there again soon.  But there are just "too many courses and too little time" and I havent played them all yet so I cannot start doubling up on courses in ATL yet.

Another enjoyable and affordable course out that same direction is "The Lion" (sorry I dont know what it is with those animal names in that part of GA) It does have a few kind of quirky holes, but an enjoyable day for the money.  At least it was a year or two ago when it first opened.  Cannot recall what no-name architect designed it.

[Top100Guru]

Again, everyone certainly is entitled to his/her opinions regarding the frog.....and anything else for that matter....as I stated, I played there in a State Championship and was not impressed.....most of these guys commenting on this course obviously have more time to play the more mediocre and "accessable" layouts in this area(or for what its worth any other too) I personally, am quite the golf snob I guess...I love good architecture, but to take it a step further,  I do not particularly care to take the time to play any of these courses that:

do not put a premium on conditioning.....

strive to play rounds in four hours or less.......

at least allow walking or have caddies available.....

allow golfers to play with their shirts untucked or their hats turned any direction other than "Bill Facing Forward"....

......unfortunately, for me at least, The Farm, although not a "Bad Course", reaks of many of the afore mentioned "no-no's" in my book.....so, for what its worth, have a nice time playing out there, if you choose to do so, but realize, there are many other tracks in the Greater Atlanta area that would warrant your hard earned $$$ before The Frog!!!!

[Top100Guru]

I meant The Frog in my next to last sentence....not The Farm....my mistake

[les_claytor]

Interesting feedback on blindness or should I say working real hard during design and construction to create a lack thereof.  
One of my pet peeves are tees elevated 2 - 3 feet above grade for no apparent reason.  In fact the higher you raise a tee on a fairly flat hole, the more you remove the plane of sight above whatever topographic movement most strive so hard to create.  

Interestingly enough, downhill tee shots over forward tees are usually the most difficult to get right.  I saw a section of a new tee at Olympia Fields in the USGA open publication where a new back tee was added +8 - 10 feet and the forward tees cut and stepped down the hillside in order to see a creek.  This work probably improved the hole, but the back slope of the pro tee was brutal.  I will say this for the Fazio camp, they will build it up to see it, but move enough dirt to tie things back in so they look good to the eye.

I should say that I didn't mean to give a blanket statement on the architectural tastes of TOUR players, however, it seems that tournament golfers prefer unexpected occurences keep to a minimum.  

However, if you design for a lack of "rub of the green" or mystery (et al) you typically end up with a sterile golf course.

[Andrew_Roberts]

What a horrible name, The FROG


What's next The Turkey or The Chicken

[A.G._Crockett]

Top100,

For what it is worth, the conditions at the Frog were far, far above average, we saw no one with their hats on backwards, and walking is permitted on weekdays by anyone and members may walk at any time.  It is a very walkable course.

I DON"T think that the Frog is the best daily fee course in Atlanta.  For the dollars, Woodmont, Chestatee, Windermere, Crooked Creek, and probably several others here on the north end of town alone are equal or better.  I DO think that architecturally the Frog is quality work by a guy that gets pounded pretty good here on GCA, myself included.  I've written here a number of times that my most disappointing day ever on a golf course was my first play of the $8m renovation of the UNC course (Finley), and I wouldn't pay $50 EVER (much less the $80 they actually charge) to play at White Columns, despite it being less than 5 miles from my house.  Maybe that's why I was so pleasantly surprised by the Frog.

[Keith Williams]

The Lion was designed by Arthur Davis and is located in
Bremen, further west than The Frog.  If anybody is ever
out that direction there are other courses to enjoy like
Oak Mountain out in Carrollton and Mirror Lake C.C. in
Villa Rica.  Mirror Lake is private but it has some really
great holes, a little quirk and unfortunately a couple of holes
that leave the player scratching their head over.  There is
some great use of lake frontage in the design though.

While the West ATL metro area is somewhat lacking in great
golf, I am pretty confident that there will be some GREAT
stuff being built in the next few years out the I-20 corridor.

Keith.

[Dan Kelly]

In his most recent, typically entertaining e-mail, the editor at Scottish Golf News (www.scottishgolf.com ; I recommend getting on his list) asked readers for "oddly monickered places to play."

I immediately thought of The Frog. I Googled "the Frog at the Georgian," to find its addresses (actual and cyber) -- and then sent off this note:

I don't know if it's a good name or a bad name, but it's certainly a goofy name for a golf course: The Frog at The Georgian Resort (Villa Rica, Georgia, USA -- near Atlanta). Two articles and one preposition: always a bad start for the name of a golf course. But perhaps including an amphibian in the name can overcome even such defects. Check it out at www.thegeorgian.com -- where the introduction instructs: "Grip It and Ribbit." And if you have your computer's volume turned up, you're treated to a very fine RIBBIT.
    You've gotta love a golf course with a sense of humor.
    Dan Kelly
    St. Paul, Minnesota, USA (nowhere near Atlanta)

[A.G._Crockett]

Dan,
Believe it or not, they have lots of items (towels, hats, etc.) in the pro shop with the "Grip it and Ribbit" slogan on them.  

I didn't buy anything.