Seth Raynor/George Bahto

[bill_k]

 This is actually a question for George Bahto, or anyone else who might be familiar with the subject. I was reading the most recent feature interview on this site and was speechless to learn that Seth Raynor had "a couple of projects in the carolina mountains". As an Asheville native, I had no knowledge of any Raynor work in the western part of either North or South Carolina. You can count the golf courses that existed in WNC before 1915 on one or two fingers-hell, people around here were still using horse-drawn wagons into the 1960's. I am aware of a mysterious nine hole course that existed prior to 1930 at the old Toxaway Inn south of Asheville near Highlands. This place attracted the wealthy elite of the day from the mid 1890's until a flood around 1914 wiped out everything below the lake. It is a very remote, rugged area that was then accessible only by rail from Asheville via Brevard. I have seen a copy of the old course's scorecard with the hole names but no photographs survive, to my knowledge. There is a present-day Lake Toxaway CC-but the course to which I am referring was gone by the early 1950's. No one there seems to know much, except that there used to be a course there around the turn of the century. Could this be one of the Raynor courses to which Mr. Bahto refers? If so, where might the other have been. Thanks.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Bill
I believe one of the courses may have been Green Park Inn.

[bill_k]

  Tom,
  Do you mean the Grove Park Inn? If not, I am not certain where the Green Park Inn might have been. As I understand it, the original course st Grove Park was built sometime in the late 1890's-would that predate Raynor's involvement in the business? I believe Ross complely redesigned the course in the 1920's. If there ever was a Green Park Inn, I would be curious to know exactly where in WNC or NWSC it migtht have been.

[Greg Holland]

I think the Green Park Inn referenced is in Blowing Rock, but the course is no longer there, or was acquired and redesigned by BRCC or something like that.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I believe it was called the Green Park Inn-Norwood or Norwood-Green Park Inn or something like that. I'm not sure if it is history or not, but I think Greg is right about it being taken over by Blowing Rock, which would put it in Blowing Rock, NC.

[George Bahto]

I've been out all day today but will give you a report on Green Park Norwood tomorrow - yes it is/was at Blowing Rock. Stay tuned

[George Bahto]

The course in question, Green Park - Norwood is located in Blowing Rock, NC (elevation 4,000 ft!!). The Green Park Inn was a “resort hotel” dating back to the 1880's. In 1915 “a 9-hole course of sorts was constructed on the grounds” - later Ross (perhaps 1922) came in and redesigned the 9 and added another 9 (as noted, he was very active in the area)

In the 1880 it was one of “the” places in the area - visited by such luminaries as El Roosevelt, Margaret
Mitchell, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover and J D Rockefeller - even had gambling (illegal) and drinking -
cool.

The key to the Raynor involvement here - and there nearly always one that traces back to NGLA and/or Macdonald - was when the founders, who parlayed $$ made in livestock in Statesville to a auto dealership to the resort hotel and then came the connection - they purchased a piece of property from on Rufus Patterson.  Bingo!  Rufus Patterson also owned a huge estate in Southampton Long Island once
the estate of Jos P Knapp, founder and great friend of C B Macdonald where Raynor built a 3-green practice course (for Mr. Knapp).

Interesting town - there is an overhanging cliff which causes a terrific updraft - in winter it snows “upside
down”

The town officials and the local “HYSTERICAL” Soc  were extremely cooperative and helped fill in a lot of blanks for me. They turned up a great piece that even had a hole by hole of the original home-made course and the history of the Grn Pk Hotel and the legend of Blowing Rock - I’ve included it below. I understand a new master plan Spencer Robbins. (anyone have info on him?)

1940's scorecard gives the following caddie fees:
      40 cents for 9 holes
      80 cents for 18 holes   just like Garden City - hah

There is a course there still - Blowing Rock Country Club - under it someplace is a portion (or even more than that) of the original Raynor course - due to its remoteness I haven’t been there yet but will do so one of these days.

Historical Information is sketchy but in a few years Seth Raynor was called in to once more re-design the course. Given the Ross date of 1922, unless some disastrous events took place - (lost greens, storms, washouts) the Raynor design may not have been completed until 1925, to in 26 or 27 and perhaps  completed by Banks who was building a course in nearby Statesville, NC.

[bill_k]

George,

   Thanks for the information, the next time I am in the mountains I will definitely check out Blowing Rock CC and give you an update. In your interview, you mention a "couple" of projects, was Raynor ever involved in anything else in the area? Does the Charles Banks course you mentioned in Statesville still exist?

[George Bahto]

The Statesville story is a little sketchy but in essence it was about the same principals who were involved in the Grn Pk Norwood course.

It seems Raynor started planning the project with them shortly after 1921 aafter  they banded together to form a corporation and they conscripted funds from founding members, one of which was the Hugh Cowles family who also donated substantial acreage.

They hired Seth and apparently he designed a 9-hole course with, get this, sand greens - this, the only mention of him ever using sand greens (hard for me to imagine him doing this but I have it pretty well documented).

Anyhow, Josh Banks ended up completing the course after Raynor died.

There is a course there now called Stateville CC but it is a different location as they had sold off the original property and purchased another tract because they wanted an 19-holes course.

I pass thru Statesville a couple times a year en route to SC and I have trouble imagining SR going there to built a course - talk about off the beaten path for those days.

Certainly the topography and challenge and I'm sure the potential profit building the Lookout Mountain course was a factor there but I would suspect it took a lot of convincing to get Raynor to go there also. In the context of the golf world in the 1920's this was well off the beaten path as well. But tying the Lookout Mtn course into the overall plan of the immense Fairlyland Project on the top of that wonderful site was, I’m sure, a major factor .

A great overall story there.

[Kris Spence]

The design of Blowing Rock is attibuted to Ross during the 20's, however I find the Raynor possibility very interesting.  I recently commented to the supt during a look around that the 3rd green was very Raynor like in character.  The present green has shrunk in size, however the fill pad is square with a prominent 1 foot ridge running down the center of the green parallel to the line of play.    If you make the trip up, go across the street from the Green Hill and you will find some of the original holes that are no longer in play.  There are five holes  growing fallow, two of which are very good three pars and a driveable par four with the green cut into a steep bank slope.  

These holes were taken out of the routing following  the design of new holes by Tom Jackson for development.