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Niall C

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Re: What Era Are We In Now?
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2014, 08:03:53 AM »
OK, Bill…but, since Tobacco Road opened in 1998, I think it might be among the POST MODERN ERA ??

I suppose that needs some discussion, too. When do we set the start of this current era, whatever we might call it?

2001…after 9/11 and the collapse of the world economy? That is nearly 15 years ago. And, while the crew of minimalists and "let's go back to a better time" designers may have been busy before 2001, it was not yet the fad or trend as we see it today.

Forrest

Not really the focus of this thread but your comment above really jumped out at me. 9/11 was an atrocity that had a knock on effect  in so many spheres however I think it would be wrong to say that it heralded the collapse of the world economy. Certainly for a lot of people in this country the economy didn't really begin to collapse until the credit crunch and all that.

Niall

Paul Gray

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Re: What Era Are We In Now?
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2014, 09:47:30 AM »
Grant,

Exactly. Parrot, language etc.

Tom's suggestion that this might be the JPEG era might not be so wrong. There does seem to be a fundamental inability to distinguish between style and substance.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Era Are We In Now?
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2014, 09:54:09 AM »

FOLK ERA … that period before and up to the Old Course being purposefully changed

CRAFTSMAN ERA … that period forward from when Morris and Robertson changed the Old Course, by design

INLAND AND GLOBALIZATION ERA [my addition] … when golf began to move inland, and was exported with little in the way of a "How--To" guide

GOLDEN AGE … 1901 to 1934, although it has been argued that it begins with the National Golf Links in America (1908)

MODERN AGE … Transitioned at the building of Augusta National (1934), and formed largely by Robert Trent Jones, Sr.

POSTMODERN ERA … Ushered in by Pete Dye, followed by many and visited, briefly, by Desmond Muirhead


Forrest

I’d bet the Old Course and other courses like it were deliberately/purposely changed on a near continuous basis from the year dot, even if a lot of those changes involved relocating the hole because the old one had crumbled. As such the Folk Era as you/Steve describe it didn’t exist IMHO.

I note you don’t put a timeframe on the Inland and Globalisation Era. I strongly suspect that there were a lot more inland courses such as at Glasgow Green, Perth etc. decades/centuries before the golf boom of the 1890’s and the fact that most if not all of these golf courses don’t survive speaks more of land use and the economics of land use than it does about golf architecture. That inland golf lasted from the 1890’s onwards was due to many factors but I doubt a change in golf architecture, if there was any, had anything to do with it taking hold prior to the Golden Age.
 
Specifically though I think you are wrong in subscribing to the view that there was little by way of design input in these early inland courses. The Old Tom’s, Willie Fernie’s and Willie Campbell’s etc had clear design ideas that was evident in their work. You can see certain similarities with the Minimalist movement as Tom D describes it in some of his posts above, in that these guys worked with what they had. They worked with what they had and with minimal resources and while you could say that was by necessity it was also because they knew no better way.

Early routing plans of these inland courses (Scottish courses being in the main the examples I have) show the copious use of existing features both natural and man-made (roads, walls, ditches, fences, hedges, quarries, spoil heaps etc) to “feature” the course. The designs also included dog-legs and alternative routes to the green (risk reward) while Old Tom for one was adept at leaving room for holes to be lengthened by setting back the tee. To suggest therefore that these guys didn’t have much idea of what they were doing doesn’t really bear scrutiny IMO. Simpson might have later referred to that time as the dark ages but I think that a comment on differences in design philosophy rather than lack of design thought by the earlier architects.

Where I think you have a watershed moment, and I think most would agree, is with Willie Park’s work at Huntercombe/Sunningdale and the general move towards naturalism in golf course development. To be honest I don’t buy into Tommy Mac’s Arts & Crafts ideas and suspect he wrote those essays with his tongue firmly in his cheek, but I think there is little doubt that at that point people were beginning to think of how the course looked and not just how it played. And while NGLA was a landmark course, to suggest it heralded in the Golden Age is just perverse.

Now where that leaves us today and where we will go from here is an interesting question. Firstly I suspect that we have a way to go yet with the current minimalist era even if the output has slowed and will continue to be intermittent as many of the world economies find their feet. What I think will be interesting is how the leading practitioners of this movement eg. Doak, C&C, Hanse etc., develop their own ideas over time. For instance, the different styles adopted and developed by Picasso over his career.
 
With regards to any new movement I’ve no idea what that will be but it’s interesting to think what might influence a new era. First off, new movements in art, architecture, music etc tend to be a reaction against what went before. That being the case what would any young tyro be reacting against ? Is the minimalist movement so dominant that young gca’s coming through the ranks would look to react against it ? Certainly on this website it tends to be raised to a higher plain than any other type of design style but is that reflected in the wider world, and the majority of courses being built today, I don’t know ?

I’ve got to think that other factors would be environmental and economic. Environmental in that water management etc will become even more important than it already is. Hand in hand with this would be significantly reduced budgets. I suspect that at this point many gca’s reading this will be shouting that they already deal with these issues which is no doubt true. I just wonder if increased pressure will lead to a reassessment of design criteria.

Finally I’ve got to think that every new movement has got to have its eureka moment which in the case of golf would be another Huntercombe for example. How do such courses come about in the modern era ? It seems to me that it comes about by patrons such as Keiser and Kohler. The question is are these guys rooted in a specific style or would they give some newbie with strange ideas a go.

Niall       

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Era Are We In Now?
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2014, 10:07:18 PM »
These are very thoughtful posts. I appreciate the replies. I am working on short talk to address a timeline of golf. While I have done that numerous times before, on this go-around my thought was to layout the "eras" and speak a bit on where it might be heading. I probably won't characterize it as The Doak Era, but maybe that will get an honorable mention   :)

Those who wish to, please scratch out your list — in order with some dates. It would be fun to collect your thinking and to see where my list(s) deviates.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Era Are We In Now?
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2014, 10:17:22 PM »
Grant — I got to thinking about your post in which you comment: "So much opinion and information exists now at the touch of a button that it is much easier for people to judge and form opinions (and discard them) based on photos, reviews, what some guy wrote on a golf architecture blog, etc. There is much less effort to actually see ideas in person and view them as part of a whole or as a product of a philosophy.

Well, this differs from the 1700s when there was scant writing in newspapers about "places you had not seen yet" and no real way for the majority of the populous to ever venture to see them. Not talking golf here, but let us imagine it was architecture in general. Someone reading about a new building in 1770 would have had far less knowledge about a building if they had not visited it than someone today would have about seeing an article on a new building. I assume the 1770s chap would hold opinions as to its beauty, ugliness, or whatever, even without ever visiting the physical building. Just based, perhaps, on a single engraving in black and white.

To me, the current day offers far more opportunity to "see" even though it many times does not amount to a personal experience. I agree it would be great for everyone to visit everyone of my courses, but I realize that opinions will be made by those who have never been there to play.

Interesting point you bring up.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Era Are We In Now?
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2014, 11:02:40 PM »
How angry would you all be if I suggested we call the current era "The Emulation Era"?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

David Lott

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Re: What Era Are We In Now?
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2014, 11:08:25 PM »
The keepers of political correctness in describing the millennia have solved that one.

We are in the "Current Era." 2014 C.E.

Before this era used to be B.C (before Christ.)

Now it's B.C.E. (before Current Era.)

In other words, there are always two eras: (1) Now (2) Then.
David Lott

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Era Are We In Now?
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2014, 11:16:10 PM »
David: Have some decent red wine. Please.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com