Kemper Lakes vs Rustic Canyon

[John_Conley]

Shiv:

Yes, I have seen Junior's grades.  I don't feel tardy.

I usually separate male from female vocalists because they are so different.  Chrissie Hynde has a nice voice, but so many you mention have a sound that conveys their emotion and don't qualify as great vocalists in my book.  Janis Joplin is one on your list that comes to mind and I'll offer Joe Cocker as a male example of the same thing.

David Lee Roth?  Oh my.  No way.  A nice frontman with charisma, but vocally inferior to the guy they considered to replace Sammy Hagar.  Some of these guys you mention fronted great bands, but hardly are great singers.  Osbourne and Plant were great singers fronting great bands.

Greatest female rock vocalist absolutely must include the Wilson sister that fronted Heart.  Wow.

Elvis was a great one, but isn't his genre closer to Sinatra than Osbourne.  Rockabilly.

[John_Conley]

Shiv:

Just so we're clear, Bryan Adams is a good rocker because he really pulls a lot of emotion out for each lyric, but he hardly has a pretty voice and doesn't exhibit a whole lot of range.  Osbourne is a freak.  He was amazing.

[THuckaby2]

I'll have you know the Huckabian approach works equally well for music, food, wine, beer, art, literature, cinema, television, and yes, golf courses... plus a lot of other things I haven't thought of in this stream of consciousness.

And it remains a life verity that the cradle will indeed rock.

You think I have a happy everything's great outlook on golf courses?  You should see my music collection.

There is one thing though:  I have yet to embrace rap.  A lot of hip-hop I can stomach, and find the good.  But rap makes things quite difficult for me.

Now back to golf course architecture.... this entire thread makes me want to really want to play Kemper Lakes.  But in a time-constrained Chicago trip, would it be worth sacrificing some others for?

[JakaB]

Huck,

With the disaster that is now Dubs...Kemper would be a better play.

[THuckaby2]

I've played Dubs - loved it - no surprise.  But that was 12 years ago or something... why is it a disaster now?

TH

[JakaB]

Huck,

Don't you read your GCA...the bunkers at Dubs have been softened for the pro event.....I've never seen the place but this is straight from a thread about its Open worthiness..

Shivas,

I turned down a house tour just today..

[THuckaby2]

John:  aha.  Yes I do recall that.  It doesn't change my opinion of the course.  Surprise, surprise.

And Dave, I think I need work musically.  I do dig Snoop, but that's just from his appearances on The Man Show and Jimmy Kimmel's new show.  The music is just over my head, I guess.

 

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Dave,
Given your love for straightforward designs like Kemper, I am not surpised to see you side with the main stream soft stuff, while ignoring the true artists - Tupac, Jay-Z and Nas...

Now I understand how you guys have 5000 posts.

[THuckaby2]

Now I understand how you guys have 5000 posts.

Yes, days like this do help.

 

OK, but we are well on the way to pissing off Ran and many others with this drivel, if we're not there already.  I'll stop now.  Back to relevant topics....

Say one had one free day in New York, would be staying somewhere in NYC, didn't have a car, didn't want to pay too much for a taxi, and wanted to spend the day playing golf.  Advice?

Note a fair answer is rent a damn car for the day and stop being so cheap.  And assume this is going to happen in early November after Bethpage is closed.  Just hypothetically, mind you.

 

[John_Conley]

If rap were GCA, would Young MC, with his beautiful flowing lines, be Flynn or Tillie?  - Would Run DMC be Ross or Fazio, commercially successful, almost to a fault? - Who is the Snoop Dog of GCA? - Is Rees the Ice T of GCA, successfully crossing over to television appearances?  - And what to make of Doak?  

Marvin Young would be David McLay Kidd, whose one major work shadowed all subsequent efforts.  Run DMC would be Ross, the first commercially successful pioneer who is arguably also one of the greatest.  By Snoop Dogg, I assume you mean mildly amusing and modestly talented artist that was guided by a visionary producer?  I guess that makes him like Arnold Palmer (Seay) or Seth Raynor (McDonald).  Rees Jones would be the Puff Daddy, brought in to remix other people's work whenever he felt like it, even if the result wasn't an improvement.  And finally, Doak is Tone Loc.  Or maybe LL Cool J is a better one to credit.  Wildly successful at a rather young age with a bunch of staying power.

[John_Conley]

Shiv:

Pass the Dutchie was a great one, but wasn't it performed by a pretty famous group?  I seem to remember it being a young New Edition.  NE spawned Bel, Biv, Devoe and launched Bobby Brown.  Maybe I've got the wrong group.

This discussion reminds me of some "one-hit wonders" of rap.

L'trimm (Cars that Go Boom)
(Peach fuzz)
Biz Markie (Just a Friend)
and so many more.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dave,
You are no more qualified to judge Rustic Canyon as a golf course then I am Kemper Lakes; which by the way, I have as much desire to see Kemper as I do attending my next rectal examination.

As far as Kemper being a more desirable place then Rustic, well judging from the way you Chicagoians judge pizza, your not even close--"NY Thin is in" and you can take that crust that is as thick and pliable as that mop on your head and go use it to support the outfield bleachers at Wrigley.


 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ammendment:

Make that the main grandstands of Wrigley. (Thanks Mike Benham for the correction!)

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dave,
Given with what you had on your mind at that time, to say you "saw" the front nine at Rustic Canyon speaks volumes of how much you didn't see and is just not very accurate IMHO.  This is why you need to get off your duff, get back out here on business or something so we can play it again and again so you can properly form an opinion, not speculate what you think the back nine is going to look and play like.

[A_Clay_Man]

Kemper has enough core principles that I can understand how, and perhaps why, Dave states what he states about Kemper LAKES. However, It also has plenty of the anti-core principles, that we have learned to loathe and despise in excess.

From what i've read, RC doesn't have any of those anti-core elements. But may soon.

[JakaB]

Doesn't Rustic's lack of a decent practice facility embrace the anti-core theory that if it doesn't produce profit screw it...I loathe the net covered range be it at Rustic, Pasa or AGNC...

[DMoriarty]

Yes, Shivas you really liked the front nine at Rustic . . .  the greens arent that good . . . the course is short and wide open . . . the course doesnt require creativity at all . . . it isn't very good tee to green . . . there are no meaningful choices because whatever you choose the result is the same . . . we must be lowering the bar if we think it an excellent course . . . but you really liked it . . . you did . . . really.

Give us a break.

[DMoriarty]

Shivas, you can add all the disclaimers, limitations, exceptions you want, the fact is that you've made all the points I mentioned above, directly or indirectly.  Don't get me wrong, almost every criticism is legitimate to raise, and shared by many on this board and off.  I just disagree.  I dont understand why you of all people will not stick to your guns on this one.  After all, arent there bundles of better public courses in the greater Chicago area alone??

If it makes you feel better, lets say that you think the course is good but not excellent for the reasons you have previously mentioned.  My comments and reactions are the same.

Your question about Tommy's play of No. 2 is a fair question and if you go back I think you'll find that I answered it without getting "bent out of shape."

Actually, a better question to ask is:  is there any fair question that can be asked of RC?  Or is this a case where anytime anyone asks a fair question or heaven forbid offers a non-glowing opinion, everybody gets all bent out of shape over it?

Come on Dave, no one is getting bent out of shape, except for maybe you and that high horse of yours.  Surely I am entitled to comment on your 'questions,' am I not?  Do you really expect your silly and uniformed statements about Rustic to to unchallenged?  

There have been a slew of posted opinions on Rustic which were based on one or no plays.  It should not be necessary to point out that the value of these opinions is of little value, to put it mildly.  I include your opinions in this category, but a notch above JakaB, who opines without even seeing the course.  

My question are: Why do you and so many others read so much animosity into responses and answers to your unaquainted opinions?  Why do so many have such strong opinions regarding something about which they know so little?

[Brian_Gracely]

My question are: Why do you and so many others read so much animosity into responses and answers to your unaquainted opinions?  Why do so many have such strong opinions regarding something about which they know so little?

Dave,

Did you just have an out-of-body experience as Matt Ward talking to you about Fazio courses?  

And I find it sort of ironic that your signature says "NO OUT OF BOUNDS", but yet RC has OB on #1, 2, 3, 5, 9, 10, 12, 13, 16, 17 and 18

[DMoriarty]

Dave,

Did you just have an out-of-body experience as Matt Ward talking to you about Fazio courses?

Brian, Matt Ward is correct on this point and always has been.   To the best of my knowledge, I've never discussed a Fazio course without having played it first (except maybe Augusta.)   I have discussed Fazio's stated design philosophies and principles.  While this is a very unpopular topic to many fans of Mr. Fazio, it is surely fair and reasonable to assume that Mr. Fazio meant what he said, and is open for discussion.  

And I find it sort of ironic that your signature says "NO OUT OF BOUNDS", but yet RC has OB on #1, 2, 3, 5, 9, 10, 12, 13, 16, 17 and 18

Really?  My understanding is that the adjacent public trail and entry road are out of bounds (both bordering the course on the east), but I must be misinformed regarding 5, 9, 10, 16, and 17 which have no OB, as well as 4 which does have ob over toward the front gate.  

The line and the one before come from NGLA's scorecard.   NGLA is an ideal which all courses should emulate but few if any will match.  

[DMoriarty]

Dave,

Did you just have an out-of-body experience as Matt Ward talking to you about Fazio courses?

Brian, Matt Ward is correct on this point and always has been.   To the best of my knowledge, I've never discussed a Fazio course without having played it first (except maybe Augusta.)   I have discussed Fazio's stated design philosophies and principles.  While this is a very unpopular topic to many fans of Mr. Fazio, it is surely fair and reasonable to assume that Mr. Fazio meant what he said, and is open for discussion.  

And I find it sort of ironic that your signature says "NO OUT OF BOUNDS", but yet RC has OB on #1, 2, 3, 5, 9, 10, 12, 13, 16, 17 and 18

Really?  My understanding is that the adjacent public trail and entry road are out of bounds (both bordering the course on the east), but I must be misinformed regarding 5, 9, 10, 16, and 17 which have no OB, as well as 4 which does have ob over toward the front gate.  

The line and the one before come from NGLA's scorecard.   NGLA is an ideal to which all courses should aspire but which few if any will reach.  

[Brian_Gracely]

Really?  My understanding is that the adjacent public trail and entry road are out of bounds (both bordering the course on the east), but I must be misinformed regarding 5, 9, 10, 16, and 17 which have no OB, as well as 4 which does have ob over toward the front gate.  

Maybe I'm confusing OB stakes with some of the fences that were up for KPIII, but I'm almost positive that my group had to deal with OB stakes on #5 (believe it was you), #9 and definitely #16.  And looking at Ran's write-up, you can also see Red OB Stakes on #11 and White OB stakes on #16.  Maybe things have changed on some of the canyon edges.

[DMoriarty]

In these parts our O.B. stakes are usually white and our lateral water hazard stakes are red.   The fences of which you are likely thinking were put up after the fire to keep carts out of the burnt areas.  They play according to Rule 26.2, absent the option of entering the hazard to play one's ball.  They are supposed to come down eventually . . . .

Come to think of it there is O.B. on 16 on the right, but well into the gunk  and beyond the 'temporary' fence.  Down the hill left of 16 is supposed to be playable.